Author Topic: Awesome Tripping Combo  (Read 7106 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

carnivore

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1671
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2010, 09:20:02 PM »
the only thing that also might trigger it (stretching what i would allow) ... would be an attack that did

So you're thinking no on the massive damage thing?  Are you saying that because it's indirect?  

if the Target Dies as a result from Massive Damage, then that would also trigger it .... dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it, whatever causes these results triggers Cleave

 :D

Bastian

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2010, 09:34:57 PM »
You're the one who needs to prove otherwise.
not OK.  I am absolutely not obligated to prove anything that runs counter to my position.  

You have claimed a definitive answer can be inferred from the text, therefore you have something to prove.  I have claimed only that your arguments are unconvincing, without ever claiming that the opposite position is correct, therefore I have nothing to prove.  
If you had paid attention to my posts you would know that I was trying to get you to prove that it's in anyway unclear beyond just stating so. Proving so would make your position look in any way valid. Thus you are absolutely obligated to prove it if you want others to listen to you.

You have claimed that no definitive answer can be inferred from the text, therefore you have something to prove.  I have claimed only that your arguments are unconvincing, since you are claiming that the opposite position could possibly be correct,  while I have already proven my point you haven't proven that your point has a leg to stand on.

PS: Yes, I'm mocking your post. If you want to prove that it's unclear you need to refute my statement, not just say lines like 'it's unclear so you need to prove it.' Seriously, claiming you don't need to defend your side because you think it could go either way without proving it is just douchebaggery.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 10:07:02 PM by Bastian »

Sohala

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1268
  • Hammer Smash Good
    • Email
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2010, 10:11:12 PM »
If you kill a prone target, does cleave allow for another hit. If it does allow another hit, then "dropping" is not dropping to prone.
"You think I'm talking about breaking the rules?"
"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
[spoiler]
Characters
Ixen-Elemental Mage Test Game
Torgthen-The Darkening
Eldak-The Neverending Dungeon
Games
Dungeon Delver's Delight
Adventures in Eberron
Town of Terror
Working Progress
[3.5] Mana Mage

Maat_Mons

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1041
  • What is a smile but a grimace of happiness?
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2010, 11:02:03 PM »
Seriously, claiming you don't need to defend your side because you think it could go either way without proving it is just douchebaggery.

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2010, 12:09:35 AM »
So obviously, dealing enough damage to a creature can make it drop.  

1. What other ways are there to make a creature drop?

2. ... and does Tripping count as another way?
1. nonlethal damage, ability damage, augmentation of energy drain to the weapon, sleep inducing poison carried by a weapon all come to my mind.
However upon rereading of the feat, "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" is a real stickler. Simply dealing damage is not the same as dealing enough damage to knock them down. So adding a save vs prone effect, such as awesome blow or poison, won't work.
Also Knock-Back would not have worked if just dealing damage was enough anyway, the feat grants the ability to make a free action trip, it is resolved separately from the original attack.

2. No, see above.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

spacemonkey555

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2010, 06:33:18 AM »
So obviously, dealing enough damage to a creature can make it drop.  

1. What other ways are there to make a creature drop?

2. ... and does Tripping count as another way?
1. nonlethal damage, ability damage, augmentation of energy drain to the weapon, sleep inducing poison carried by a weapon all come to my mind.
However upon rereading of the feat, "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" is a real stickler. Simply dealing damage is not the same as dealing enough damage to knock them down. So adding a save vs prone effect, such as awesome blow or poison, won't work.
Also Knock-Back would not have worked if just dealing damage was enough anyway, the feat grants the ability to make a free action trip, it is resolved separately from the original attack.

2. No, see above.


seems as if knock-back sets the damage to potentially make the creature drop to 10, not the creature's remaining hitpoints, and the fact that you have to resolve a trip attempt doesnt negate the fact that dealing 10 points of damage let you "drop" the creature

its clear cleave was poorly worded, and rai is that reducing the mob to 0 or less hps or flat out killing it triggers a cleave, but as written dealing enough damage (which can be 10 thru knock-back) to knock it down (with a successful trip attempt) suffices

raith0

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2010, 09:23:49 AM »
i think the real crutch of either argument is the fact that as worded Cleave is vague and poorly written (now how many times have we said that).  to be honest i think the intention of the feat was to get you an extra attack whenever you killed something (by any possible melee means) but as written it would be up to DM interpritation and players inturpritation.  i dont think i would let some one get an extra attack from tripping because of how abusive it would become.  but thats me and probably the DMs i play with.  your milage may vary


Ron

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2010, 10:39:33 AM »
i think the real crutch of either argument is the fact that as worded Cleave is vague and poorly written (now how many times have we said that).  to be honest i think the intention of the feat was to get you an extra attack whenever you killed something (by any possible melee means) but as written it would be up to DM interpritation and players inturpritation.  i dont think i would let some one get an extra attack from tripping because of how abusive it would become.  but thats me and probably the DMs i play with.  your milage may vary
Creatures don't die at -1HP (which is when they drop and cleave can trigger) nor will they die if nonlethal damage is used (either by choice or regeneration).

It is a little harder to define things than it looks at first glance.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

zaulsiin

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 59
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2010, 01:36:36 PM »
Ignoring the rules for a second, if you think it out logically, one could only cleave into a new target if the initial target were somehow removed from your weapon's path. If you go by that logic, anything that forces your opponent out of your path could theoretically allow a cleave (including things like the Brutal Surge weapon enhancement).

Now I can't claim to have any insight into the designer's intentions, but the flavor seems to be that if you swing your weapon so hard that it clears an obstacle from the weapon's path, then you may continue with the original momentum of the swing and hit an additional target. That being said, I really don't think a standard trip attempt would qualify, as you aren't hacking at your opponent with a ton of force, so much as you're simply trying to push them off balance. Knock-down, however, would seem to qualify as you are hitting them normally, and you just happen to know how to use the force of that hit to put them on the ground.

I'm still not personally sure which side of the issue that I'd come down on if I were DM'ing, but a case could clearly be made for either side.

zugschef

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2010, 02:34:54 PM »
to me it makes perfect sense that knock-down can trigger cleave. but i do understand the argument against it.

BruceLeeroy

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2010, 04:00:05 PM »
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 04:04:15 PM by BruceLeeroy »

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2010, 09:33:27 PM »
I already reached my own conclusion Knock Down won't work (see first post in here by me).

Awesome Blow on the other hand which does directly add a save vs prone effect to your attack I thought would. Got errata on that?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2010, 09:58:47 PM »
carn is right here. They could have said "max hp - (nonlethal + lethal damage) provided temporary hp is not positive".... but that would be too complicated for a people trying to learn core.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2010, 10:17:08 AM »
Pssst. 3.0 Errata never made it into the 3.5 republishing of the Knock Down feat.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Rebel7284

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2010, 10:49:05 AM »
Pssst. 3.0 Errata never made it into the 3.5 republishing of the Knock Down feat.

Last I checked, the Knock Down feat never made it to 3.5.

There is Knockback from Races of Stone, but that's different =)
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

jameswilliamogle

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1279
    • Email
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2010, 01:24:02 PM »
Its in the 3.5 SRD without errata.  Also Miniature's Handbook (IDK what edition MH is, though).

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2010, 01:38:35 PM »
Its in the 3.5 SRD without errata.  Also Miniature's Handbook (IDK what edition MH is, though).
MH is 3.0 almost 3.5. It's not Pseudo3.5 like SS and BoVD though.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1279
    • Email
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2010, 01:51:32 PM »
Would a Spellstoring Weapon with a sleep spell released at the time it struck an opponent activate Cleave (or a sleep poison, for that matter)? 

That seems super-hairy, to me...  Not sure what RAI is in this case.

Almost no doubt that Imp Trip wasn't intended to activate Cleave, though.

Hallack

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2010, 01:59:31 PM »
Its in the 3.5 SRD without errata.  Also Miniature's Handbook (IDK what edition MH is, though).

Just looked and do not see it in the Miniatures Handbook.
Placeholder - T'tosc

jameswilliamogle

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1279
    • Email
Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2010, 03:05:12 PM »
Oh!  My bad...  That's Pushback...  Totally different...
There's a thread over on 339 about this...