Author Topic: Awesome Tripping Combo  (Read 7103 times)

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Black Knight

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Awesome Tripping Combo
« on: August 13, 2010, 03:25:10 PM »
Orginally posted in the Ask a Simple Question thread:

Q118:  Let's say your character has Power Attack, Improved Trip and Cleave.  Now when you trip an opponent, Improved Trip gives you a free attack as if you hadn't used your attack to trip.

Does Cleave then grant you a free attack against another opponent because you 'dropped' the opponent you tripped?
Cleave only grants you another attack when you take someone to negatives, or 0 in the case of undead, constructs, etc.

Ok... so more specifically:

CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Quote
You can follow through with powerful blows.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack.  The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

So obviously, dealing enough damage to a creature can make it drop.  

What other ways are there to make a creature drop?

... and does Tripping count as another way?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:37:28 PM by Black Knight »
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Rymosrac

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Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 03:29:51 PM »
RAI, pretty sure they meant to render them unconscious or dead.

RAW, there is no "dropped" condition.
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Bastian

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Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 03:30:24 PM »
The reason it has to drop is the damage you dealt to it, so no it doesn't work.

Quote
You can follow through with powerful blows.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack.  The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Maat_Mons

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Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 03:39:16 PM »
You might be able to use the feat if you deal enough damage to make a creature's nonlethal damage equal its current hit points or if you deal 50 or more points of damage with a single attack and the creature fails its fortitude save. 

Hallack

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Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 04:18:24 PM »
Quote
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop  (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)

So "enough damage to make it drop" happens to be 0.  With that test it would fly.

Question: Does the "drop" have to be from "damage"?  
Answer: Yes

Question:  Does the damage have to drop the foe below 0 hit points?
Answer: No, this is just the typical trigger.

Question:  Can the amount of damage dealt to make something drop be 0 points?

Question: Can actions like Tripping drop a foe in a way that triggers cleave?

Question:  What other methods are there to make a foe "drop" while doing damage?

Edit: Also, I think perhaps this thread should be renamed Awesome Tripping Cleave combo or some such.  Might get more opinions that way :)

« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:19:56 PM by Hallack »
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Bastian

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Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 04:37:17 PM »
Quote
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop  (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)

So "enough damage to make it drop" happens to be 0.  With that test it would fly.

Question: Does the "drop" have to be from "damage"?  
Answer: Yes

Question:  Does the damage have to drop the foe below 0 hit points?
Answer: No, this is just the typical trigger.

Question:  Can the amount of damage dealt to make something drop be 0 points?

Question: Can actions like Tripping drop a foe in a way that triggers cleave?

Question:  What other methods are there to make a foe "drop" while doing damage?

Edit: Also, I think perhaps this thread should be renamed Awesome Tripping Cleave combo or some such.  Might get more opinions that way :)


It's not that trip attacks deal 0 damage and can thus be consider damage for triggering cleave. They instead don't deal damage at all and aren't even vaguely related to damage.

0 damage would for example be doing hitting a person with 3/- with a 1d2 weapon without any bonuses. Something that is no way related to damage would for example be speaking to someone in a normal voice.

Black Knight

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 04:38:19 PM »
Thread renamed just for Hallack.
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Black Knight

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 04:45:43 PM »
As a free action you can Drop Prone. PHB 144

- This is essentially what happens when you 'drop' a creature.  You force them to Drop Prone.

A tripped character is prone. PHB 159

So even though no damage is dealt with the Trip, you still force your opponent to Drop Prone.
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Bastian

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 04:56:04 PM »
As a free action you can Drop Prone. PHB 144

- This is essentially what happens when you 'drop' a creature.  You force them to Drop Prone.

A tripped character is prone. PHB 159

So even though no damage is dealt with the Trip, you still force your opponent to Drop Prone.
You still aren't dealing anything remotely close to damage, so it doesn't work. If you can find an ability that allows a person to be tripped based on damage then it would work.

Sohala

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 05:31:32 PM »
Would flaming/frost/etc fill you damage hole? It would then be dropping and taking damage.
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Rymosrac

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2010, 05:48:26 PM »
Not definitive that the touch attack for tripping counts as a hit for granting bonus damage from those abilities, IMO. Could be called both ways.
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Bastian

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2010, 06:02:42 PM »
Would flaming/frost/etc fill you damage hole? It would then be dropping and taking damage.
The damage has to be the cause of the trip. You can't just add damage to a trip because that would just be the trip causing them to drop and the flames/frost/etc. causing damage.

Maat_Mons

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2010, 06:06:44 PM »
Knock-down allows you to trip a foe as a consequence of dealing damage. 

Rymosrac

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2010, 06:40:11 PM »
Though the trip attack to actually strip them is still separate from the attack which deals the damage.

Edit: Hrm. Yes. Well then.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 07:23:33 PM by Rymosrac »
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2010, 07:22:26 PM »
Yes, being rendered prone is an indirect result of the damage rather than a direct result.  It is unclear if that distinction is relevant.  I'm not sold on rendering someone prone counting as dropping him, but supposing it does, knock-down seems to provide the most plausible argument. 

Bastian

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2010, 07:22:50 PM »
Knock-down allows you to trip a foe as a consequence of dealing damage.  
The problem is that it lets you perform a trip attempt as a consequence of dealing damage, not directly tripping them as a result of doing damage. This feat requires "you (to) deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" so the damage has to directly cause the dropping.

@Rymosrac: One would hope that the stripping is separate from the attack or that's sexual assault.  :P
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 07:24:52 PM by Bastian »

carnivore

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2010, 07:31:00 PM »
from what i can see ... i am inclined to go with McPoyos reading:

"Cleave only grants you another attack when you take someone to negatives, or 0 in the case of undead, constructs, etc."

the only thing that also might trigger it (stretching what i would allow) ... would be an attack that did Nonlethal Damage that resulted in Unconsciousness

if you are able to convince your DM of your Interpretation ... go for it .... i personally would not allow it to be interpreted that way

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Maat_Mons

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2010, 08:33:02 PM »
The problem is that it lets you perform a trip attempt as a consequence of dealing damage, not directly tripping them as a result of doing damage.

Being rendered prone is a result of the trip, and being tripped is a result of the damage, so being rendered prone is a result of the damage, albeit indirectly.  I don't think we disagree on this exactly, I just want to emphasize that an indirect result is a kind of result.  


I have already said that whether dropping a creature can be an indirect result of the damage is not clear from the wording.  If you feel this restriction can be inferred, you should make an actual argument to that effect.  

While we're on the subject, would dieing because you failed the fortitude save you have to make after taking 50 or more points of damage from a single hit be a direct or indirect result of the damage?  I think indirect, since there's a check made between taking the damage and applying the effect.  

the only thing that also might trigger it (stretching what i would allow) ... would be an attack that did

So you're thinking no on the massive damage thing?  Are you saying that because it's indirect?  

As a free action you can Drop Prone.

So, dropping is a way someone can become prone.  This doesn't prove that dropping is the only way to become prone.  Without that, you can't say that, just because someone is prone, he must have dropped. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 08:40:34 PM by Maat_Mons »

Bastian

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2010, 08:40:11 PM »
The problem is that it lets you perform a trip attempt as a consequence of dealing damage, not directly tripping them as a result of doing damage.

Being rendered prone is a result of the trip, and being tripped is a result of the damage, so being rendered prone is a result of the damage, albeit indirectly.  I don't think we disagree on this exactly, I just want to emphasize that an indirect result is a kind of result.  
The problem is that it isn't even that direct. Being rendered prone is a result of a successful trip and being able to initiate the trip attempt is a result of the damage. So your dealing enough damage to allow a trip attempt, not "enough damage to make it drop."

That sentence forces the dropping to be a direct result of the damage since it's not "enough damage to make you able to drop it or to make it drop from a fortitude save" it's "enough damage to make it drop." You're the one who needs to prove otherwise.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 08:44:22 PM by Bastian »

Maat_Mons

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Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2010, 09:10:44 PM »
You're the one who needs to prove otherwise.
not OK.  I am absolutely not obligated to prove anything that runs counter to my position.  

You have claimed a definitive answer can be inferred from the text, therefore you have something to prove.  I have claimed only that your arguments are unconvincing, without ever claiming that the opposite position is correct, therefore I have nothing to prove.