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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2010, 12:56:12 AM »
Let's say you wish for a dozen turkey bagel sandwiches on poppy seed bagels, with onions, tomatoes, lettuce, cheese, turkey, mayo, thousand island ranch dressing and olives.  Instead you get a dozen turkey bagel sandwiches on sesame seed bagels, with onions, tomatoes, lettuce, cheese, turkey, mayo, thousand island ranch dressing and olives.  That's a partial fulfillment.  Most of the clauses of the wish were fulfilled, but some weren't.
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Aharon

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2010, 11:24:46 PM »
This thread over at Giantitp had some interesting ideas on how to make wish work for you, but I found the details a bit lacking in rules-foundation (for example, it was argued that one should make the wish in a verb-last variant of the (allegedly) mathematically precise modron language so that no clauses can be left unfulfilled or something similar. I didn't go through the proposed code, because it was hard to read and I wasn't that bored.).

The first, imperfect version is on the second or third page:
[spoiler]
Okay, here's my current working attempt at an unbreakable wish. It's almost certainly still breakable at this point, but everyone here can probably think of ways to fix it as well.

Please note that the following wish is in a verb-last form of Modron (go grab the web enhancement for MotP for reference if you aren't aware of the language's peculiarities) that does not create a full and complete sentence at any point until the end (this includes any subset of symbols or words (including parts of symbols), even out of order, such that no part of the wish can be fulfilled by itself for grammatical reason). It has been reproduced here in English, because unlike all my Wizard PCs (and most of my others), I don't speak Modron.


I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, in Modron, and asked for my approval - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur.[/spoiler]

I personally prefer the lazy version of wishing for a totally legal +10^(Googolplex) cloak of charisma, if I feel the need to break the wish spell.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 11:29:55 PM by Aharon »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2010, 11:42:05 PM »
Still susceptible to the Vanna White Veto.  And if that's rule lawyering good enough for the state of Wisconsin, it's good enough for a DM.

Quote
I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, in Modron, and asked for my approval - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur.
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Aharon

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2010, 12:44:49 PM »
Yes, but as the person posting that claimed, that isn't possible because of the modron thingie, because if something is deleted, it doesn't work at all.

(Of course, he disregarded that mathematically speaking, no fulfillment at all is a subset of the class partial fulfillment.)
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2010, 01:20:24 PM »
I contend that such a language could not exist.  

To have a coherent language, you must have a finite number of ideograms or letters.  Thus, there is a finite number of arrangements of characters possible for each sentence length.  

But the number of possible sentences is infinite (trivial proof: you can say "I want N bananas" for any number N).  

Thus, sentences must vary in length, or be infinitely long.  If they're infinitely long, you'll never finish saying them.

As sentences vary in length, there must be some sentences longer or shorter than each other.  Furthermore, with any sentence with more letters or ideograms greater than the number of unique letters or ideograms, there must be repeats (by the pigeonhole principle).  In addition, in order to convey information a sentence must have some information entropy.  Just repeating the same letter continuously isn't going to add any significant amount of information, and conversely isn't going to be a valid tactic for increasing the length without making subsets easier to make.  Similarly, we can't have a unique ideogram in each sentence.

As sentences get longer and longer, the number of possible substrings increases factorially.  Verb placement doesn't help you at all, since "wish" is your verb.    If your string is 100 characters long, there's 10^39 subsets I can choose to get a 20 character string out.  (to put this in perspective, that's more than the possible number of 20 character combinations of all the letters in the alphabet with spaces, commas, periods and quotes.)
Are you really going to argue that none of those is going to be syntactically valid?  You'll have to prove that rigorously, otherwise the DM can just say "sorry, turns out 'turn me into an eggplant right now' is a subset of what you said in that fictional language".  



Plus, saying it in Modron just opens the door for the DM to say "what you said in Modron, ironically enough, means 'please screw me over unto the tenth generation no take backs' in an obscure dialect of Abyssal".  And the demons would do it, the bastards.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 01:24:30 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2010, 02:28:26 PM »
You certainly earned your moniker with that post there, Linguist. :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2010, 06:28:17 PM »
(trivial proof: you can say "I want N bananas" for any number N).  

Plus, saying it in Modron just opens the door for the DM to say "what you said in Modron, ironically enough, means 'please screw me over unto the tenth generation no take backs' in an obscure dialect of Abyssal".  And the demons would do it, the bastards.

A Slaad would start singing:
But yes we have no bananas ... bananas
We have no bananas today.
(repeat all four lines)

Nanshork

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2010, 06:39:40 PM »
Spoilered for being off topic.
[spoiler]
(trivial proof: you can say "I want N bananas" for any number N).  

Plus, saying it in Modron just opens the door for the DM to say "what you said in Modron, ironically enough, means 'please screw me over unto the tenth generation no take backs' in an obscure dialect of Abyssal".  And the demons would do it, the bastards.

A Slaad would start singing:
But yes we have no bananas ... bananas
We have no bananas today.
(repeat all four lines)

Pfft, THIS is a better song about bananas.
[/spoiler]
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Mixster

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2010, 05:11:23 PM »

as per my understanding of the qualities unclaimed, property, sentient, and entity



Emphasis my own.

If I were your DM, a lot of angry Mithral Golems would be coming to get you, unless you want to claim you think a Mithral Golem is sentient, or perhaps a horde of Oozes, who are by some degree sentient after having gotten their gold stolen.

But I love this thread, but with the bolded text, things you do not regard as sentient could have claimed the gold already and come for you.
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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2010, 05:31:17 PM »
(the link was funny even without headphones)

Wishing for a 10^gx Cha something ... hmm ...
I'd say a Commoner 1 has a [compulsion] that you have that Cha.
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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2010, 01:37:01 AM »
But I love this thread, but with the bolded text, things you do not regard as sentient could have claimed the gold already and come for you.

Riches of the Outer Gods!

My experience is that the most effective way to use open-ended wishing is to talk to the DM in advance and establish "I don't try to destroy the game, you don't screw me over". In any contest of trying to force the DM to your will or your personal interpretation of the rules, the DM will win - or rather, nobody will win, because by trying to turn the game into a legal battle you've basically sucked the fun out of it for everyone.

The only games where I've ever seen Wish be remotely effective or useful are the ones where people agree not to try to turn it into a contest of DM and player outwitting each other, letting the players make straightforward wishes with clear intent and the DM come up with a reasonable compromise if he thinks the original wish is unacceptable.

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2010, 08:36:09 PM »
The problem is that only as a spell-like ability is wish really worth it in that sense. It costs a lot of xp for what it does you know.

The item creation as a spell like ability is however just screwing the game over though.
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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2010, 11:06:52 PM »
The problem is that only as a spell-like ability is wish really worth it in that sense. It costs a lot of xp for what it does you know.

The item creation as a spell like ability is however just screwing the game over though.

The thing is, if Wish isn't worth using without trying to out-lawyer the DM, it's just not worth using period. When you try to out-lawyer the DM into giving you game-breaking stuff, the best-case scenario is that the DM is annoyed with you and progressively more annoyed each time you try it.

That is not a very good best-case scenario.

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2010, 05:41:00 AM »
Seeing as how this Handbook has turned into more of a guide for DMs on how to deal with players who violate The Most Important Rules of Gaming*, I'll add my favorite ways for dealing with this problem, using the OP's 1,000,000 Wish example:

Give them EXACTLY what they wish for, and no more.
Your wish results in 1,000,000 gold pieces being deposited in your tower. 1 picosecond later, it vanishes.

Your wish results in 1,000,000 gold pieces being deposited in your tower. It is impossible to move these gold pieces in any way.

Give them exactly what they wish for...AND MORE!
You get the million gold. You also develop a communicable universal allergy to gold that renders you and anyone else incapable of doing anything which could have an effect on this gold.

You get the million gold. Gold is now a worthless commodity.

You get the million gold. Your tower is now transported to an alternate plane of existence and is impossible to trace.

You get the million gold. Each piece is inscribed with a Symbol and/or Explosive Runes, readable only by you.

You get the million gold. You are stricken with the irresistible impulse to count your gold, and the inability to count beyond the number twenty.

Bonus lawyer-type fulfillment:
You get a million copper pieces. Given the specifics of your purchase order, this is a shipment of nonconforming goods, and therefore constitutes a valid acceptance of your offer and a completed contract per Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code. As you did not specify a seller, you cannot identify a party against whom to lodge a complaint and thus you have no remedies.

*[spoiler]Rule 1: Don't be a d*** unto the DM least the DM be a d*** unto you. Rule 2: the DM's d*** is bigger than yours.[/spoiler]

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2010, 01:11:04 AM »
All ridiculousness about legalistic wish-wordings aside, it strikes me that 'transport travelers' is not explicitly dimensional travel or teleportation, and is 'regardless of local conditions', including such minor details as antimagic fields and general wards against magical travel. The subjects of the spell are simply 'lifted' 'from anywhere on any plane' and 'placed' 'anywhere on any plane'. This has some utility.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 01:12:54 AM by Toptomcat »

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2010, 02:14:05 PM »
Seeing as how this Handbook has turned into more of a guide for DMs on how to deal with players who violate The Most Important Rules of Gaming*, I'll add my favorite ways for dealing with this problem, using the OP's 1,000,000 Wish example:

Give them EXACTLY what they wish for, and no more.
Your wish results in 1,000,000 gold pieces being deposited in your tower. 1 picosecond later, it vanishes.

would cause most players to jump ship, or retaliate with major game disturbence, you are essentially taking 5k of their exp and doing something for wich the wish spell would not have done by its wording in anyway, simply having the spell fail is the better solution here

Your wish results in 1,000,000 gold pieces being deposited in your tower. It is impossible to move these gold pieces in any way.

an unfathomable impoosibility in the dnd world, nothing is un anything, surly you cant tell me the gold is unmovable by any means, when wizards can create or destroy entire planes of existence.eeven gods can die, nothing is unmoveable.

Give them exactly what they wish for...AND MORE!
You get the million gold. You also develop a communicable universal allergy to gold that renders you and anyone else incapable of doing anything which could have an effect on this gold.

while its possible to be allergic to gold, its within the core rules of the wish spell to be able to simply just wish the alergy away, nevermind a mid level cleric could do the same very easily. and again, a mage can move the gold without having contact, which is far outside of the reach of the affliction, he could even do it from another plane. this could also break the game for you, as a clever player within rules could move the gold into a city and caus emuch mahaym.

You get the million gold. Gold is now a worthless commodity.

the equivenlt of dropping a nuclear bomb on your game. you just made gold worthless. the entire economy on every level just crashed utterly, empires would fall overnight, raids would insue on a planer basis, you may have infact made the party richer, being so powerful they would be given magical items in exhangew for body guards to protect rich people. if you want your game to come to a near standstill this is the way to do it.

You get the million gold. Your tower is now transported to an alternate plane of existence and is impossible to trace.

the only thing moving here is the players to the door to leave. firstly nothing is undetectable in the dnd world, it can be found. a wizard the ports to a random demsion and puts up every ward in the book to protect from detection of anykind, will still have that seer psion knock on his door and ask for that lunch money hes owed. that aside the spell itself would never grant this as the spell has to work with whats worded, and no way can you take that and get this result, your perverting the spell much more then the players. you didnt just take 5k xp and 1mil gold, you took their tower with most of their possesions, you just lost your group.

You get the million gold. Each piece is inscribed with a Symbol and/or Explosive Runes, readable only by you.

while plausible a single explosive rune or symbol would hardly scratch a chracter of this level, and most likly a wizard is already protect from it. since hes not reading more then one at a time cause they are so small he would just ignore the rest. you dont read a qurtar every time you touch one, just ignore the gold and your rich. in fact the gold having minor magic aura with a good bluff check makes it worth even more, just convince vilalge idoits its special in some way. or let your artificer use it, you gave him alot of magic reserve gas with this idea. while not game breaking per se, a clever group could make it a nightmare.

You get the million gold. You are stricken with the irresistible impulse to count your gold, and the inability to count beyond the number twenty.

while i doubt any player would because theres alot of ways to do this within the words you used to say it. he could just walk around with 21 peices count, lose count start over and just count as he walks. or i could refer you to the alergy response, since again it can be cured rather easily within RAW.

Bonus lawyer-type fulfillment:
You get a million copper pieces. Given the specifics of your purchase order, this is a shipment of nonconforming goods, and therefore constitutes a valid acceptance of your offer and a completed contract per Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code. As you did not specify a seller, you cannot identify a party against whom to lodge a complaint and thus you have no remedies.

i supose this makes sense somehow, that you get a partial filled request, but end of the day you would have to have good explination for it, since the spell specifically mentions gold, and the spell cannot work outside of what its given to use. and it was stated gold as he knew it, so you cant even duge worth to a kobold.

*[spoiler]Rule 1: Don't be a d*** unto the DM least the DM be a d*** unto you. Rule 2: the DM's d*** is bigger than yours.[/spoiler]

i dissagreee. the dm is not there to go to war wioth players, and this is something that many forget, you are there to narrorate the world, and because they word a certian spell within a 0% margin of error doesnt give you the right to be a child. they dont need you remember, they can replace you. you want to dm you be fair. while a player wishing for a million gold is bad for the game, its not hard to turn it on them. (again using our examples here) it could be as simple as it giving off alot of stench for a rust monster, or maybe a seer led group of thevies discovers it. but trying to pit the dm on the players with those two rules is the fastest way to be a lonly lonly dm. they didnt break any game rules when making a wish spell. even if its game breaking, its not rule breaking, when the dm perverts something only because he thinks its fair, he made his game a clear icon that if he cant win you cant win. while i encourage dms to not make it easy on their players, remember, its not your job to change the rules on a whim cause they are smart, change the game. if they now have a million gold and can buy super awesome stupid powerful items, just give them to the enemies. a groupo can walk around with a quiver of spellstoreing lesser shivering touch maximized arrows and hunt dragons for aliving, but why couldnt the enemies? wizards teleport and players sleep, to much fame can be a bad thing, let the players play themselves ito a corner, but dont just put them in one to be "fair"


added my responses to this in red.

Bigtuna

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2011, 09:46:33 AM »
I like this thread!

As a GM it's nice find nice ways to explain to players - "you shouldn't destroy the game", rather than just saying the spell don't work - I could now use the 1.000.000 tiny gold pieces - worth 25.000 gp. And the say "Stop it!"

But really why allow the players to try to break the game? (and if you get 1.000.000 from casting a wish spell you break the game!) If a player cast it once and get more than 25.000 - but not they way he wanted, due to some little wording you as a GM picked up on - he'll spend the time from now to the next game session trying to word his wish in a manner, that's bulletproof. (he might even start handhandbook on webpage, to get input from others) And you as a Gm will have to make up a reply on the go. Better just to say "NO" right away... 

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2011, 06:52:48 PM »
Seeing as how this Handbook has turned into more of a guide for DMs on how to deal with players who violate The Most Important Rules of Gaming*, I'll add my favorite ways for dealing with this problem, using the OP's 1,000,000 Wish example:

Give them EXACTLY what they wish for, and no more.
Your wish results in 1,000,000 gold pieces being deposited in your tower. 1 picosecond later, it vanishes.

would cause most players to jump ship, or retaliate with major game disturbence, you are essentially taking 5k of their exp and doing something for wich the wish spell would not have done by its wording in anyway, simply having the spell fail is the better solution here

Your wish results in 1,000,000 gold pieces being deposited in your tower. It is impossible to move these gold pieces in any way.

an unfathomable impoosibility in the dnd world, nothing is un anything, surly you cant tell me the gold is unmovable by any means, when wizards can create or destroy entire planes of existence.eeven gods can die, nothing is unmoveable.

Give them exactly what they wish for...AND MORE!
You get the million gold. You also develop a communicable universal allergy to gold that renders you and anyone else incapable of doing anything which could have an effect on this gold.

while its possible to be allergic to gold, its within the core rules of the wish spell to be able to simply just wish the alergy away, nevermind a mid level cleric could do the same very easily. and again, a mage can move the gold without having contact, which is far outside of the reach of the affliction, he could even do it from another plane. this could also break the game for you, as a clever player within rules could move the gold into a city and caus emuch mahaym.

You get the million gold. Gold is now a worthless commodity.

the equivenlt of dropping a nuclear bomb on your game. you just made gold worthless. the entire economy on every level just crashed utterly, empires would fall overnight, raids would insue on a planer basis, you may have infact made the party richer, being so powerful they would be given magical items in exhangew for body guards to protect rich people. if you want your game to come to a near standstill this is the way to do it.

You get the million gold. Your tower is now transported to an alternate plane of existence and is impossible to trace.

the only thing moving here is the players to the door to leave. firstly nothing is undetectable in the dnd world, it can be found. a wizard the ports to a random demsion and puts up every ward in the book to protect from detection of anykind, will still have that seer psion knock on his door and ask for that lunch money hes owed. that aside the spell itself would never grant this as the spell has to work with whats worded, and no way can you take that and get this result, your perverting the spell much more then the players. you didnt just take 5k xp and 1mil gold, you took their tower with most of their possesions, you just lost your group.

You get the million gold. Each piece is inscribed with a Symbol and/or Explosive Runes, readable only by you.

while plausible a single explosive rune or symbol would hardly scratch a chracter of this level, and most likly a wizard is already protect from it. since hes not reading more then one at a time cause they are so small he would just ignore the rest. you dont read a qurtar every time you touch one, just ignore the gold and your rich. in fact the gold having minor magic aura with a good bluff check makes it worth even more, just convince vilalge idoits its special in some way. or let your artificer use it, you gave him alot of magic reserve gas with this idea. while not game breaking per se, a clever group could make it a nightmare.

You get the million gold. You are stricken with the irresistible impulse to count your gold, and the inability to count beyond the number twenty.

while i doubt any player would because theres alot of ways to do this within the words you used to say it. he could just walk around with 21 peices count, lose count start over and just count as he walks. or i could refer you to the alergy response, since again it can be cured rather easily within RAW.

Bonus lawyer-type fulfillment:
You get a million copper pieces. Given the specifics of your purchase order, this is a shipment of nonconforming goods, and therefore constitutes a valid acceptance of your offer and a completed contract per Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code. As you did not specify a seller, you cannot identify a party against whom to lodge a complaint and thus you have no remedies.

i supose this makes sense somehow, that you get a partial filled request, but end of the day you would have to have good explination for it, since the spell specifically mentions gold, and the spell cannot work outside of what its given to use. and it was stated gold as he knew it, so you cant even duge worth to a kobold.

*[spoiler]Rule 1: Don't be a d*** unto the DM least the DM be a d*** unto you. Rule 2: the DM's d*** is bigger than yours.[/spoiler]

i dissagreee. the dm is not there to go to war wioth players, and this is something that many forget, you are there to narrorate the world, and because they word a certian spell within a 0% margin of error doesnt give you the right to be a child. they dont need you remember, they can replace you. you want to dm you be fair. while a player wishing for a million gold is bad for the game, its not hard to turn it on them. (again using our examples here) it could be as simple as it giving off alot of stench for a rust monster, or maybe a seer led group of thevies discovers it. but trying to pit the dm on the players with those two rules is the fastest way to be a lonly lonly dm. they didnt break any game rules when making a wish spell. even if its game breaking, its not rule breaking, when the dm perverts something only because he thinks its fair, he made his game a clear icon that if he cant win you cant win. while i encourage dms to not make it easy on their players, remember, its not your job to change the rules on a whim cause they are smart, change the game. if they now have a million gold and can buy super awesome stupid powerful items, just give them to the enemies. a groupo can walk around with a quiver of spellstoreing lesser shivering touch maximized arrows and hunt dragons for aliving, but why couldnt the enemies? wizards teleport and players sleep, to much fame can be a bad thing, let the players play themselves ito a corner, but dont just put them in one to be "fair"


added my responses to this in red.

So, you think that the players should be allowed to break the game because they might walk? If I was the DM and a player tried that threat, I'd throw em out by their testes. If a DM allowed this than he might as well let someone play Pun Pun.

Nanshork

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2011, 08:52:09 PM »
BrainCandy, you're responding to someone who hasn't even been online in six months.
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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2011, 02:27:30 AM »
i like having an explanation for why a wish is limited and i think it should have a lot to do with the whatsit on the other line that's being given the chance to exercise its apparently unlimited ability to make and unmake reality on your front lawn.

the scope of your wish determines the scope of how much power it gets to exercise in your world. if you ask for too much, you risk letting it do even MORE than you wanted, possibly to the point that it shows up and gets to do *whatever the heck it wants for as long as it wants*
 
it's only a 9th level spell and you can memorize multiple ones. YOU aren't a guy who can alter existence on a whim, so maybe you don't want to open the door too wide to someone who can.

even if it isn't maliciously interested in killing you, its whim may not involve maintaining the orderly reality you're used to. there's a chance it might first think you'd look funny with salamis for arms. then it might want to see how big the plants get when the atmosphere becomes 100% CO2 for a couple of years. then it might want to randomize all the matter into a big cloud of subatomic particles to see how long it takes for yeast to happen. then...

the very nature of a wish indicates that there's something out there that's orders of magnitude more powerful than somebody who has to *cast a spell* to play with reality. best to keep that entity out of your sandbox.