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Arniha

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The Wish Handbook
« on: August 12, 2010, 09:05:01 AM »
The Use of Wish


   This handbook is a primer on the art of wishcraft, using the spell wish to achieve mighty effects.

What can wish do?

As per the SRD, Wish can do any of the following:


o   5000 XP for a 5th level spell? Nooooooooooo.


How Can We Use This Power?
At this point we enter the realm of DM fiat. The DM will grant one of three effects:
1: Exactly what we wanted: This is the best option for us, as it gives us what we want, sadly, unless we are very inglorious about the effects of our wish, it is also the least likely.
2: A literal granting of the wish: For most DMs this is the most likely situation we as players will have to deal with if we attempt to abuse wish. It will be the focus of our guide. In a properly worded wish, this will be identical to possibility 1.
3: A partial fulfillment of the wish: This is the worst possible effect. The wish simply will not do what we want. This option is less likely than possibility 2, unless we seriously overreach ourselves. As players it will be our goal to avoid this possibility.

Wording is Everything

As noted above, the most likely circumstance we will experience is a literal interpretation of the Wish. As the saying goes: be careful what you wish for. The bulk of this guide will be devoted to the construction of a wish that provides a function literal interpretation. Throughout, we will be using a fairly standard wish: I wish I had one million gold pieces.

To avoid a negative effect (yes, a failure is a negative effect, the spell costs 5000 XP) we must first establish the parameters of the spell: Where, When, What, and How.

Where:I wish that I had one million gold pieces in my possession, located in the basement of my tower.
I wish for one million gold pieces to be created in the basement of my tower.

When:I wish for one million gold pieces to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds after the completed speaking of this spell.

What:

This is a surprisingly easy parameter to detail, it is mostly important to be exact and unambiguous in what we want to occur, and to realize exactly what we want to occur. For example, in our above wish, in game terms, we want to obtain 1,000,000 GP. However, by stating gold pieces, we open ourselves up to ambiguity. A piece could be the size of a pinhead. So a closer statement would be that we want 1,000,000 gold coins. Once again, we run into the troubling question how big is a coin? So a less ambiguous version of what we want is 10 tons of gold minted as coins. If your DM is a dick however, you might end up with two 5 ton coins. So an even better approximation of what we want is 10 tons of gold minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders.

Example rewording: I wish for 10 tons of gold, minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders, to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds after the completed speaking of this spell


How:I wish for 10 tons of pure gold, as per my understanding of the quantity ton and the quality gold, minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders, as per my understanding of the quantities cylinder and inch, to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds, as per my understanding of the quantity seconds, after the completed speaking of this spell, as per my understanding of completed speaking.


Arniha

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2010, 09:05:20 AM »
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Arniha

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2010, 09:05:32 AM »
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Arniha

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2010, 09:05:46 AM »
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 03:23:07 PM »
Quote
Your "example wish" violates the rules. You can't Wish for more than 25,000 gp in nonmagical items. Technically it has to be a single item, even. So you couldn't wish for a "pile of gold" at all.

However, you can wish for any magic item you want. The only restriction is that you have to pay the XP cost. If you can get even 1 "free" wish (where you don't have to pay the XP cost), then you can literally wish for a staff of infinite wishes. Or just a normal staff of wishes, and use the last wish from that to get another one, etc.

Of course unless the DM is prepared for this, you're going to break the game, or it won't be allowed. So usually Wish is either completely game breaking (if used literally as written) or something that no one would ever cast (if you can't use it to break the game, the XP cost is too high).
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urarenge

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 04:32:02 PM »
Wish needs a Handbook?? Ok...

Quote
Your "example wish" violates the rules. You can't Wish for more than 25,000 gp in nonmagical items. Technically it has to be a single item, even. So you couldn't wish for a "pile of gold" at all.

Of course unless the DM is prepared for this, you're going to break the game, or it won't be allowed. So usually Wish is either completely game breaking (if used literally as written) or something that no one would ever cast (if you can't use it to break the game, the XP cost is too high).

Read the spell description. You can wish for stronger effects

 




So you can wish for a mundane item of 25,001 gp value or 25,000 items of 25,000 gp in value, but you wording must be exact.

In a campaign I played some time ago, with a fighter, a druid, and my wizard, both casters used every high level spell they had, and we still had to fight the BBEG. So i wish for "have our spell slots filled with the exacty spells that we had yesterday". (not with that wording)

It was a campaign saver...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 04:47:16 PM »
Read the spell description. You can wish for stronger effects
Ah... I missed this sentence in the OP:
Quote
However, none of these are our focus. Rather, our focus is the last sentence of its effects:
See... I usually just totally ignore that last part, because trying to use it is just asking for the DM to completely  :censored you over. It is the land of DM fiat, and isn't something I'd consider optimizable at all, as there are no real rules for it.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Psithief

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2010, 04:57:41 PM »
I'd love to be your DM, so I can boot you out for attempting to be a munchkin.

This probably belongs in "You Break It, You Buy It". It's hardly based on reality at all.

Sobolev

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 07:32:30 PM »
Read the spell description. You can wish for stronger effects
Ah... I missed this sentence in the OP:
Quote
However, none of these are our focus. Rather, our focus is the last sentence of its effects:
See... I usually just totally ignore that last part, because trying to use it is just asking for the DM to completely  :censored you over. It is the land of DM fiat, and isn't something I'd consider optimizable at all, as there are no real rules for it.

The point of this handbook is in fact to remove it from the land of DM fiat by being so exact that the DM cannot interpret it correctly without doing what you want.

That being said, I think i would agree this might belong in the "You Break It, You Buy It." simply because of the amount of campaign breaking that would occur given this goal.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

awaken DM golem

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 07:45:44 PM »
Savage Species Ritual section has a Wish + Spellcraft check doing something "above" what a normal Wish can do.
"Above" is the wording in Sav Species.

Garryl

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2010, 04:02:01 AM »
I like to (in theory, anyways) use my first Wish is for something like this:

"I wish for all future Wish spells that I cast, dictate, or otherwise request to be fulfilled in the manner that I intend at the time of casting, dictating, or otherwise requesting."

It still needs work but the intent is to take the potential for literal perversion out of the equation by forcing Wishes to act as intended instead of as stated.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2010, 04:26:59 AM »
I like to (in theory, anyways) use my first Wish is for something like this:

"I wish for all future Wish spells that I cast, dictate, or otherwise request to be fulfilled in the manner that I intend at the time of casting, dictating, or otherwise requesting."

It still needs work but the intent is to take the potential for literal perversion out of the equation by forcing Wishes to act as intended instead of as stated.
Partial fulfillment: they always work the way somebody intends, but it's not you.

Quote
It works, except only partially.  Specifically, the 'gold' and 'deposits of ore un' parts.  Instead it transports 10 tons of pure internal organs from claimed humanoid innards into your basement in the specified manner, place, and form. 

But at least it transports something to where you want it to be, when you want it to be there, stacked nicely the way you want it to be.

Alternatively alternatively: it changes your 'understanding'.  You are now delusional.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:29:59 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Arniha

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2010, 07:17:38 AM »
As far as DM Fiat and the placement of the handbook, post 2 will be on obtaining Wish for cheap (gate ftw!), something a bit more concrete. I just figured I'd get this much out there while I get the other posts ready.

Bastian

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2010, 03:25:15 PM »
Read the spell description. You can wish for stronger effects
Ah... I missed this sentence in the OP:
Quote
However, none of these are our focus. Rather, our focus is the last sentence of its effects:
See... I usually just totally ignore that last part, because trying to use it is just asking for the DM to completely  :censored you over. It is the land of DM fiat, and isn't something I'd consider optimizable at all, as there are no real rules for it.

The point of this handbook is in fact to remove it from the land of DM fiat by being so exact that the DM cannot interpret it correctly without doing what you want.

That being said, I think i would agree this might belong in the "You Break It, You Buy It." simply because of the amount of campaign breaking that would occur given this goal.
So, until such time as you can write up a three page legal brief, you shouldn't be trying to optimize wish's greater effects.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2010, 05:25:20 PM »
hat 10 tons of pure gold, as per my understanding of the

Vanna White Veto for you partial fulfillment.
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Bastian

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2010, 06:16:22 PM »
hat 10 tons of pure gold, as per my understanding of the

Vanna White Veto for you partial fulfillment.
Not to mention that he didn't define pure so that the DM could decide that pure means emotionally pure and greed is not pure thus gold can inherently never be pure since people are greedy as a result of it, making so it can't give you gold. Or it could send you animated gold ore deposits which while not claimed as property by anyone have many powerful friends which want to kill you for their deaths. Also minted is left undefined so it could be just covered in mint or for a bigger burn made into mint.

For that matter, if ten tons of gold doesn't fit exactly (including the exact measurements at a subquark scale) into solid cylinders one inch in diameter and one tenth inch in height, the DM is free to ignore your wish.

Finally, if you have multiple understandings of any of those words, it's free to use whichever understanding it wants.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 06:32:54 PM by Bastian »

Sobolev

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2010, 06:26:26 PM »
I like to (in theory, anyways) use my first Wish is for something like this:

"I wish for all future Wish spells that I cast, dictate, or otherwise request to be fulfilled in the manner that I intend at the time of casting, dictating, or otherwise requesting."

It still needs work but the intent is to take the potential for literal perversion out of the equation by forcing Wishes to act as intended instead of as stated.
Partial fulfillment: they always work the way somebody intends, but it's not you.

Quote
It works, except only partially.  Specifically, the 'gold' and 'deposits of ore un' parts.  Instead it transports 10 tons of pure internal organs from claimed humanoid innards into your basement in the specified manner, place, and form.  

But at least it transports something to where you want it to be, when you want it to be there, stacked nicely the way you want it to be.

Alternatively alternatively: it changes your 'understanding'.  You are now delusional.

As cutesy as your first answer is, it definitely doesn't work like that.  He has already stated it has to be pure gold, as per his understanding of gold and ton.  I see what you did with the next sentence, but that's irrelevant because organs have nothing to do with that.  Additionally, the gold is to come from unclaimed ore, so the gold would have to come from organs, not be an organ.  Again, while I'm sure there is some solution to this, yours is wrong.

Your second answer is much better and I give it my stamp of approval. The wizard is now delusional so to make his wish easier to fulfill at the power level of Wish.  Making you crazy and then giving you 2 chickens as per your understanding of gold and ton seems much more in line with the power level of wish.

Edit: Also failure to define pure is a problem.

What you need/are trying to make is a boilerplate for wishes so that you don't get screwed.  In general I approve, and carry on.  If nothing else it's entertaining.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 06:31:25 PM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2010, 06:45:38 PM »
It's a partial fulfillment.  Like, let's say you go down to burger king and order a combo.  You ask for a number 1 combo with ketchup to go and get a number 3 with ketchup to go.  They partially fulfilled what you wanted, but didn't get it all right.
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Sobolev

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2010, 08:34:45 PM »
It's a partial fulfillment.  Like, let's say you go down to burger king and order a combo.  You ask for a number 1 combo with ketchup to go and get a number 3 with ketchup to go.  They partially fulfilled what you wanted, but didn't get it all right.

There's a difference between partial fulfillment (doing half of what you wanted) and just doing everything completely wrong.  I'm fine with perversions that cause not what you wanted to happen, but I'm with the OP in that you can't just pick something and say "well, I partially fulfilled your wish, you wished for gold and got organs from dead creatures".

Partial, but not arbitrary or completely wrong.

To use your example.  You order a 1 with ketchup to go and a 3 with ketchup to go.

Partial Fulfillment.  You get a 1 and a 3 both to go, no ketchup.  Or a 1, no ketchup, to go but a 3, no ketchup not to go.  Or any of a million permutations.

Random Nonsense.  Instead of a 1 and a 3, built to your specifications, you get poop and a rhinoceros.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 08:36:41 PM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

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Re: The Wish Handbook
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2010, 08:57:39 PM »
You're forgetting something.  You can word it as specifically as you want and the DM can say, "You cast the spell, nothing happens."
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