Author Topic: Modified Artificer tier query  (Read 1292 times)

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weenog

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Modified Artificer tier query
« on: August 11, 2010, 09:20:56 PM »
Idly musing about the artificer with my DM and one of the other players in my group, I suggested a few changes to make artis usable without being gamebreakers.  I think the changes put it into the neighborhood of Tier 3, but the other player immediately started suggesting further nerfs and the DM was agreeing.  :banghead

I want more experienced and knowledgeable players' opinions to show them.  Which tier do you think Artificer belongs in with the following changes, and what other changes (if any) would you suggest to make it a better fit for that tier?

  • The Item Creation class feature cannot be used to create Spell Completion or Spell Trigger items, nor any use-activated item that casts or emulates the effect of a spell.
  • Lose Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff bonus feats.  In their place, gain bonus feats of your choice from the artificer bonus feat list, metamagic feats, or feats designated as fighter bonus feats; you must meet the prerequisites for any of these bonus feats to take them.
  • All infusions with casting times longer than 1 standard action are reduced to 1 standard action.
  • Spending 1 action point reduces the time to cast an infusion to 1 swift action.


The gist of it is the artificer is no longer able to fake being all the primary spellcasters simultaneously if he wants to.  Instead he's a moderately skillful character and mediocre warrior who always has exactly the right tool for whatever job comes up.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 09:37:42 PM by weenog »
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borg286

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Re: Modified Artificer tier query
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 11:19:32 PM »
Well now his infusion that creates any spell of 4th level or lower of 1/2 his level, being a standard action, he has true versatility and can thus spontaneously cast every spell of 1/2 his level.  WIth an action point he can cast all of them as a swift action.   No that's not broken.  With this 1 ability as you've stated I'd still put him in tier 1.
Seriously follow after the Pathfinder Artificer here
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/artificer
They have done a good job fixing him up while still granting him the casting ability he needs.  The eberron artificer does indeed have too long of casting time of his infusions, and most of the suck except a few broken ones (the aforementioned infusion that gives you any spell of 1/2 your level, the metamagic item infusion are the big culprits)
Limiting him from abusing metamagic spell trigger, the increased effective level, and making magic items that require a certain alignment and a certain skill and a certain class to reduce the costs with other cheesy price reductions evens out the artificer quite a bit.

borg286

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Re: Modified Artificer tier query
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 11:25:53 PM »
There's nothing stopping him form getting an uber high UMD check so he is still able to buy wands and do his metamagic spell trigger, and with the swift casting of the metamagic infusion he can pull cheese more often.  Making both increase the charges spent by level*spell level increase wouldn't make it impossible, but impractical. 

Bastian

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Re: Modified Artificer tier query
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2010, 12:02:08 AM »
This also doesn't stop an artificer from making random slotless items with the massive amount of cost reducers available.

weenog

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Re: Modified Artificer tier query
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 12:11:31 AM »
Well now his infusion that creates any spell of 4th level or lower of 1/2 his level, being a standard action, he has true versatility and can thus spontaneously cast every spell of 1/2 his level.  WIth an action point he can cast all of them as a swift action.   No that's not broken.  With this 1 ability as you've stated I'd still put him in tier 1.
I am unaware of this infusion, enlighten me.  Include book and page number, please.  I think I need to be familiar with this before making any comment or change.
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borg286

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Re: Modified Artificer tier query
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 01:49:24 AM »
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Infusions-Artificer.pdf
As a swift action I can see some really nasty abuse.

They get this at level 1, but can only do level 0 spells, but get all spells 1 level behind the fastest caster gets them up to level 4.

borg286

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Re: Modified Artificer tier query
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 01:52:56 AM »
Giving an artificer the ability to use any infusion as a standard action doesn't give him the casting ability he needs to be the caster, and only opens the door for abuse wider than you're trying to close it.  Change his ability to have his effective caster level be Artificer level -1 or 2 so that he doesn't get the spell earlier than the caster themselves.

weenog

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Re: Modified Artificer tier query
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2010, 02:33:23 AM »
I see, I hadn't realized that Spell Storing Item came with a spell... that is a problem.

I'm actually not looking to make the artificer into a caster.  I'd actually prefer to completely eliminate his ability to produce spell effects on his own, and focus more on the ability to tailor items to fit problems as they come up... do things like improvise up some ghost-touch armor if surprised by a bunch of wraiths, change a shocking burst kukri to fire damage if a troll needs to be put down permanently, pull a rope and grapnel that greatly boosts climb checks if the party needs to get somewhere high up in a no-fly zone, that kind of thing.  Seems to be easier said than done, however.

I still think the others are a bit nuts for suggesting the Bane weapon improvement as well as Holy and its siblings should be made +3 equivalent improvements for artificers.  You can't do Holy/Unholy/Axiomatic/Anarchic at level 1 anyway, and you will run out of infusions for Personal Weapon Augmentation quick if you're using it all the time.  That's not even getting into the base silliness of arbitrarily changing a magic effect's market price for one class only.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."