Fractional Improvement

[Arz]

The normal system gives a +2 to your good saves at first level. How about changing that to a +2 for all saves and BAB?

The reason to do this is to decrease the effect of dp and transformation upon BAB but it also simplifies your class choice to just grabbing the one with the best skill points. Also many of the good fighter feats have a +6 BAB requirement that can now be in your 4th lvl bonus slot.

Any thoughts or downsides?

[RobbyPants]

Well, it gives a boost to BAB that you wouldn't otherwise get, allowing things like earlier iterative attacks, a 5th iterative attack at 19th level (BAB 21 now), and earlier PrC entry.  This won't break your game, but it will change it.

An easier way to mitigate the dip effect would be to only grant the +2 bonus per save once.  So, a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would still get +2 Fort and +2 Ref, but a Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 wouldn't get Fort +4.  You'd only add the +2 bonus to Fort once.

Of course, this approach incentivizes certain types of multiclassing over others.  Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I guess.

[PhaedrusXY]

An easier way to mitigate the dip effect would be to only grant the +2 bonus per save once.  So, a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would still get +2 Fort and +2 Ref, but a Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 wouldn't get Fort +4.  You'd only add the +2 bonus to Fort once.

This is exactly what I do. Using this system, you can never get a base save better than a single-classed character with that "good" save, nor a worse one than a single-classed character with that "bad" save, which is exactly what I'm looking for when using fractional progressions in the first place. I want to keep everyone on the same RNG.

[skydragonknight]

An easier way to mitigate the dip effect would be to only grant the +2 bonus per save once.  So, a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would still get +2 Fort and +2 Ref, but a Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 wouldn't get Fort +4.  You'd only add the +2 bonus to Fort once.

This is exactly what I do. Using this system, you can never get a base save better than a single-classed character with that "good" save, nor a worse one than a single-classed character with that "bad" save, which is exactly what I'm looking for when using fractional progressions in the first place. I want to keep everyone on the same RNG.

+1/2

[Arz]

Well, it gives a boost to BAB that you wouldn't otherwise get, allowing things like earlier iterative attacks, a 5th iterative attack at 19th level (BAB 21 now), and earlier PrC entry.  This won't break your game, but it will change it.

An easier way to mitigate the dip effect would be to only grant the +2 bonus per save once.  So, a Fighter 1/Rogue 1 would still get +2 Fort and +2 Ref, but a Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 wouldn't get Fort +4.  You'd only add the +2 bonus to Fort once.

Of course, this approach incentivizes certain types of multiclassing over others.  Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I guess.

I thought it implicit w/ the fractional system that you get the bonus only  once. Obviously I failed english!

Yeah, the BAB entry prc's looked like they might be a problem, then I thought, hey cheese-wiz is likely doing that 1/day already!

My DM experience usually ends around ECL 13 or less, so I'm more curious about what those with top-end experience think.

[RobbyPants]

My DM experience usually ends around ECL 13 or less, so I'm more curious about what those with top-end experience think.

I think you're in the same boat as a lot of DMs.  I've never run anything past 15th level, and my games seldom go past 12th.  That's about when the game totally breaks anyway, so you have to stay on your toes and make sure the players are all on the same page.

Also, note that getting rid of stacking +2 "good" save bonuses will only partially help at higher levels.  3E was built with a divergent bonus paradigm, where the difference between a "good" and "bad" save increases with character level.  This is the same with BAB.  That means at lower level, the only thing really keeping the wizard out of melee is his low Str and hit points, not his BAB.  By BAB alone, he's only 5% behind the fighter.  When the difference between good and bad increases like that, you run more and more into someone slipping off the top or bottom of the RNG.  Basically, what's a legitimate threat for one PC will either be certain success or certain failure for another.

[veekie]

Yeah, but you can work with that, as long as an alternative option is available. After all, this gives differentiation, a skilled fighter is as much over the wizard in martial skill as an experienced adventurer wizard is over an ordinary commoner in the same.
True, he would be unable to hit any level appropriate creatures without the use of magic, but that in itself is sorta the point, whereas the fighter would hit almost all the time in his area of specialty which is also the point.

The thing is to give the dice some influence even on these extreme cases.

As for the +2 bonus, I think you could replace the starting +2 with a typed "Good Save" bonus and adjust the progression appropriately. That'd take care of matters.

[PhaedrusXY]

Also, note that getting rid of stacking +2 "good" save bonuses will only partially help at higher levels.  3E was built with a divergent bonus paradigm, where the difference between a "good" and "bad" save increases with character level.  This is the same with BAB.  That means at lower level, the only thing really keeping the wizard out of melee is his low Str and hit points, not his BAB.  By BAB alone, he's only 5% behind the fighter.  When the difference between good and bad increases like that, you run more and more into someone slipping off the top or bottom of the RNG.  Basically, what's a legitimate threat for one PC will either be certain success or certain failure for another.

Not really. The difference in a "good" save and a "bad" save, even at level 20, is only 6. That's still on the same RNG, as long as you get rid of the stupid multiclassing crap that normally kicks it up above 12 or below 6.

BAB is something else, and yeah there is a bigger divergence there, but if you're going to be actually hitting things in combat, you will be compensating for having a low BAB or boosting it somehow. If you're not, then you don't even care.

[RobbyPants]

You're right that 6 points won't throw someone totally off the RNG if the other person is at about the 50% range.  Although the nature of bonuses in 3E means that a bad save will be largely dominated by other bonuses (such as a solid Resistance bonus and an ability bonus).  So, depending on how the PC allocates their ability scores and other specific bonuses, they can put their good and bad save on par with each other, or throw themselves off the RNG.