Author Topic: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk  (Read 4047 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« on: August 07, 2010, 05:59:00 PM »
What I'm thinking is:

(1) ... having all class abilities named exactly what they are named right now
comment - this is important so that people "read" it as exactly the monk everybody knows and ~loves

(2) ... having those class abilities function like:
(2a) ... 1st + 2nd level equal or better Wiz or Cleric casting
(2b) ... 3rd + 4th level equal or better than Wiz or Cleric with minor CO tricks
(2c) ... 5th + 6th level equal or better than 2b with Leadership, but without a real Leadership mechanic, just equivalent power
(2d) ... 7th + 8th level superior to Wiz or Cleric or Psion(!) with their best "normal" cheese from 4th level spells/powers.
(2e) ... 9th + 10th level would be so obviously overpowered BUT absolutely a straight hack of a spell
(2d) ... 11th + 12th level etc
comment - this is so the relative lack of options, is countered by the obvious spell early type approach

(3) ... any PrC that advances the standard monk abilities still does, but with an absolutely straight hack of a spell, as the added mechanic
(4) ... any PrC that advances the flurry / unusual abilities still does, but with as above AND with a 2d style added mechanic
comment - supercharging those specific mechanics

(5) ... RESULT = a no longer underpowered monk, with far fewer choices than a equal level tier 1 class, and mechanics suspiciously named the same as preexisting ham-fisted monks.


Examples:

Monk 2 gets Improved Evasion AND more stuff
Monk 3 gets Rerolls on Will Saves called "Still Mind" AND more stuff
Monk 4 "Slow Fall" now brings down fliers AND more stuff
Monk 5 gets the benefits of 2 headed template from Sav Species, without the actual 2nd head ... called "Purity of Body" pulling a previous life into the now.

etc ...

Ideas ?? !!

skydragonknight

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2010, 06:03:38 PM »
Purity of body - Your Body is so pure that it that is overflows. You may clone youself as a standard action, creating a duplicate of yourself 2 levels lower. This duplicate acts as if you in all ways, and is loyal to you. You may only have one clone at a time, and if your clone dies, you may make a new one after 24 hours.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 08:22:41 PM by skydragonknight »
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skydragonknight

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2010, 06:12:07 PM »
Slow fall: You fall so slowly that you can change the direction of your fall at will. This behaves as the "Fly" spell, except the maneuverability is perfect and your fly speed is three times the speed indicated on the table (at 20th level you may move any place you can see).

Edit: removed the laser beams. Seriously.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 08:24:13 PM by skydragonknight »
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skydragonknight

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2010, 06:16:53 PM »
Evasion: You get Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. Whenever you are attacked by an attack, spell or other ability that includes you in it's area of effect, you may give up one of your attacks of opportunity to use Wings of Cover as an Immediate Action.

Improved Evasion: As Evasion, except you may use Wings of Cover as a free action.

...and that's all I've got for now.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 08:23:40 PM by skydragonknight »
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Prime32

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2010, 07:43:05 PM »
Unarmed strike: The monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and his unarmed damage increases as shown on the table. At any time he may treat his unarmed strike as a natural or manufactured weapon, and a light, one-handed or two-handed weapon, whichever is more convenient. He may make unarmed strikes with any part of his body, meaning that he can attack even when his hands are full. This also allows him to dual-wield unarmed strikes, if he wishes.

Stunning Fist: Whenever a creature is struck by a monk's unarmed strike they must make a Fort save or be stunned for 1 round.
Improved Grapple: A monk gains the Improved Grab special attack and is treated as two size categories larger for the purposes of grapple checks.

Fast movement: The monk can move the listed speed as a swift action (or "free action once per round", for luddites).

Flurry of blows: As a standard action, the monk may make multiple attacks using the bonuses in the table above. If he takes the full attack action in the same round, he may use this ability as a free action, but only once per round (ie. a 20th-level monk could attack with bonuses of +15/+10/+5/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5).

Greater flurry: The monk's attacks reach such speed that they are resolved as touch attacks.

Ki strike (magic): The monk's natural weapons overcome DR/magic and affect any target struck with a greater dispel magic effect (caster level = monk level).
Ki strike (lawful): The monk's attacks are treated as lawful-aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, and deal +2d6 damage against chaotic creatures.
Ki strike (adamantine): The monk's natural weapons overcome DR/adamantine and hardness.

Slow fall: The monk and any creatures within 60ft take falling damage as if the fall were shorter. In any other case where creatures within the radius would be moved by a spell, bullrush or other effect, the monk may choose to reduce the distance by the amount listed (eg. a monk with slow fall 20ft who was bullrushed 30ft would move only 10ft).

Quivering Palm: Any creature struck by the monk's unarmed strike must make a Fort save or be infused with a set of lethal vibrations. At any time within one day per monk level, the monk can will that creature to die instantly.

Timeless Body: The monk has mastered the flow of his body through time. He gains the benefits of venerable age with none of the penalties, cannot die of old age, and is constantly under the effects of an (Ex) haste effect.

Diamond Body: The monk gains hardness equal to half his class level.

Abundant step: The monk may choose to become ethereal while moving.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: The monk may turn undead as a cleric of his monk level at will. He does not need a holy symbol, but targets are not affected if they cannot hear him speak. The monk uses Wisdom in place of Charisma for all turning-related rolls.

AC Bonus: The monk and all allies within 60ft gain a bonus to AC equal to the amount listed, plus the monk's Wis modifier.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 08:30:30 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2010, 08:22:16 PM »
Still Mind: The monk may choose not to be effected by any mind-affecting effect, even if he fails his save.

Wholeness of body: The monk gets Regeneration equal to one-quarter his Monk level, overcome only by chaotic weapons. All lost body parts automatically move towards the monk at his land speed (or fly speed if he is slow falling using My version) and reattach as soon as they reach him.

Empty Body: The Monk can use Astral Projection at will.

Perfect Self: The monk has reached the pinnacle of his abilities. He gains the Paragon Template (see the Epic Level Handbook) for free. He does not gain any level adjustment for this template: it is the product of all his hard work and dedication.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2010, 10:34:40 PM »
Flurry of Blows: A monk doubles the number of attacks he makes on a full attack action, effectively making two full attacks each with the same attack bonus.

Unarmed Strike: I'm just going to steal Prime's version here.

Evasion: As normal, but the monk may also apply this to melee and ranged attacks. A successful save means he takes no damage.

Still Mind: The monk does not register to special senses like tremorsense and blindsight, and such enemies need to make a Spot or Listen check to detect him as normal. He also gains Mettle.

Ki Strike (magic): A monk's unarmed strike receives a +1 enhancement bonus for every two class levels he possesses. This enhancement bonus can be shifted around with a minute's meditation (so a 4th level monk could have a +2 unarmed strike or a +1 defending unarmed strike).

Slow Fall: A monk takes no damage from falling and can even balance on the air, effectively gaining a fly speed equal to the speed noted on the table. (The 20th level entry should be replaced with 180 feet--or possibly 900.)

Purity of Body: A monk is immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save. He may also channel his inner energy with a touch, healing Xd6 damage (where X is half his class level rounded up) or dealing that much damage to undead targets.

Wholeness of Body: Stealing SDK's version here.

Improved Evasion: As before, and this ability also applies to melee and ranged attacks.

Ki Strike (lawful): Once per round, a creature who is struck by a monk's unarmed strike is affected by Dictum with a caster level equal to the monk's class level. Banishment only applies to the creature who is struck by this attack, if indeed it qualifies for banishment. Oh, and his unarmed strikes count as lawful for bypassing DR, yadda yadda yadda.

Diamond Body: Once per round, a monk can ignore any one ability or attack that would affect him.

Greater Flurry: Every attack the monk makes during a full attack is now made at his highest base attack bonus.

Abundant Step: The monk ignores any adverse effects of terrain and is constantly under a Freedom of Movement effect.

Diamond Soul: The monk may use Fission at will with a ML equal to his class level. Only one fissioned duplicate may exist at one time.

Quivering Palm: Stealing Prime's again because I'm too lazy to figure out how having a personalized Earthquake affect a target would skew things.

Ki Strike (adamantine): The monk's unarmed attacks ignore hardness and DR that can be bypassed with special materials.

Timeless Body: The monk immediately stops aging. He gains any positive effects of aging but none of the negative effects. As an immediate action, the monk can also step out of time as per Time Hop, up to one round per class level. He does not need to make a Wisdom check to return to the normal flow of time, choosing when to do so. He may only use this ability again once 1d4 rounds have elapsed after he returns.

Tongue of Sun and Moon: The monk may communicate with any entity, living or otherwise. He may also spend a full-round action to channel ki into his words. All allies who can hear him are affected by a Heal or Harm spell, whichever is more beneficial, while all enemies who can hear him are affected by the more harmful of a Heal or Harm spell. (If both would be harmful for an ally or both would be beneficial for an enemy, the Tongue of Sun and Moon does not affect them.)

Empty Body: Eh, stealing from SDK again.

Perfect Self: As SDK's ability, but the monk's perfection also causes him to win the game.


Prime32

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 08:29:57 AM »
Flurry of Blows: A monk doubles the number of attacks he makes on a full attack action, effectively making two full attacks each with the same attack
"But wait, what's that column called 'Flurry of blows bonuses' for then?"
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2010, 10:23:03 AM »
Empty Body: Your body is empty.  Really empty.  You may gain the ghost template as a free action.  This lasts for a number of hours per day equal to your character level.
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Amechra

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2010, 09:33:51 PM »
Quivering Palm: Once per week, you may strike an opponent, causing sympathetic vibrations to go throughout their body. The target gets no save, and the monk may select any point of time within the next year to cause the effects of this ability; namely, make the target explode with effects equivalent to that of the spell Apocalypse from the Sky from the Book of Vile Darkness, cast at a caster level equivalent to your monk level to the power of its self.


Oh wait, we weren't actually going for overpowered, were we?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2010, 07:04:24 PM »
Good stuff so far ...

Tongue of Sun and Moon - super Time Hop 2/day but only 1 time per target per day. Target disappears from multiverse until the next cycle of the Sun or Moon. Might last as little as a hour. Wouldn't be used much at all around sunrise or sunset. Probably needs special rules for Moon only places, or Sun only places ... stuff happens on the planes.


I suppose upping Flurry or the standard Monk progression, is made difficult by the iffy quality of the Monk PrCs. If standard Monk is made strong enough, no one would take the PrCs.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 07:31:52 PM »
Flurry of Blows: A monk doubles the number of attacks he makes on a full attack action, effectively making two full attacks each with the same attack
"But wait, what's that column called 'Flurry of blows bonuses' for then?"
2 reasons: 1)To see who read the rules concerning text trumping table. 2) To have a reason to shift a everything 1cm and add a page to the book thus justifying charging $5 more for it than it would otherwise cost.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 07:56:50 PM »
Flurry of Blows: Once per session, you may punch the DM until he goes to Dairy Queen and buys everyone ice cream treats.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 08:01:31 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Prime32

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2010, 09:08:42 PM »
Blow of Flurrys: Once per session, you may punch the DM until he goes to McDonalds and buys everyone ice cream treats.
Fixed.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2010, 11:07:30 PM »
Flurry of Blows: A monk doubles the number of attacks he makes on a full attack action, effectively making two full attacks each with the same attack
"But wait, what's that column called 'Flurry of blows bonuses' for then?"
What column? *innocent whistle*

skydragonknight

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2010, 11:11:57 PM »
Text trumps table. :P
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Amechra

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 12:24:34 AM »
Flurry of Blows-Each round as an immediate action, you can make a number of attacks as shown under the flurry bonuses column.

It's gonna need some cleaning up, but...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2010, 12:52:27 AM »
I'll use everybody's posts as the template since I'm lazy.

Unarmed strike: The monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and his unarmed damage increases as shown on the table. At any time he may treat his unarmed strike as a natural or manufactured weapon, and a light, one-handed or two-handed weapon, whichever is more convenient. He may make unarmed strikes with any part of his body, meaning that he can attack even when his hands are full. This also allows him to dual-wield unarmed strikes, if he wishes. The monk may also use his bare hands even when dual-wielding tower shields.

Stunning Fist: Whenever a creature is struck by a monk's unarmed strike they must make a Fort save or be stunned for 1 round. All creatures within 30ft that witnesses the success of a stunning fist must also make a Fort save or be stunned for 1 round too.

Improved Grapple: A monk gains the Improved Grab special attack and is treated as two size categories larger for the purposes of grapple checks. If a grapple is successful the monk may constrict the opponent doing damage equivalent to his unarmed strike damage.

Fast movement: The monk can move the listed speed as a swift action (or "free action once per round", for luddites). When charging or running, the monk may move at 10 times the listed speed.

Flurry of blows: As a standard action, the monk may make multiple attacks using the bonuses in the table above. If he takes the full attack action in the same round, he may use this ability as a free action, but only once per round (ie. a 20th-level monk could attack with bonuses of +15/+10/+5/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5). If the monk successfully executes all attacks, he gains 1 more attack at his maximum bonus that comes with a free Stunning Fist effect.

Greater flurry: The monk's attacks reach such speed that they are resolved as touch attacks. The Stunning Fist effect includes a Smite, using the monk's Wis modifier.

Ki strike (magic): The monk's natural weapons overcome DR/magic and affect any target struck with a greater dispel magic effect (caster level = monk level). The monk may at this level deflect spells that come in ray form, or any spells that require an attack roll.

Ki strike (lawful): The monk's attacks are treated as lawful-aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, and deal +2d6 damage against chaotic creatures.

Ki strike (adamantine): The monk's natural weapons overcome DR/adamantine and hardness. The monk's body takes on an adamantine sheen, giving him a DR equal to his Wis modifier that can be overcome by adamantine.

Slow fall: The monk and any creatures within 60ft take falling damage as if the fall were shorter. In any other case where creatures within the radius would be moved by a spell, bullrush or other effect, the monk may choose to reduce the distance by the amount listed (eg. a monk with slow fall 20ft who was bullrushed 30ft would move only 10ft). The monk may also choose to slow time as the camera moves 360 degrees and change the direction of his fall or jump at any time.

Quivering Palm: Any creature struck by the monk's unarmed strike must make a Fort save or be infused with a set of lethal vibrations. At any time within one day per monk level, the monk can will that creature to die instantly. The explosion caused by the vibrations also deal damage in a radius of 5ft per HD of the creature, dealing 1d6 damage per HD of the killed creature.

Timeless Body: The monk has mastered the flow of his body through time. He gains the benefits of venerable age with none of the penalties, cannot die of old age, and is constantly under the effects of an (Ex) haste effect. He is treated as wearing a belt of battle with regards to the properties and effects.

Diamond Body: The monk gains hardness equal to half his class level. He is immune to deep sea pressures and shits diamonds.

Abundant step: The monk may choose to become ethereal while moving. The monk may also walk on grass, heads or even water without giving a damn about physics.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: The monk may turn undead as a cleric of his monk level at will. He does not need a holy symbol, but targets are not affected if they cannot hear him speak. The monk uses Wisdom in place of Charisma for all turning-related rolls. Furthermore the monk may communicate with all creatures with or without a language with perfect clarity.

AC Bonus: The monk and all allies within 60ft gain a bonus to AC equal to the amount listed, plus the monk's Wis modifier. This AC bonus stacks with shields and armor.

Still Mind: The monk does not register to special senses like tremorsense and blindsight, and such enemies need to make a Spot or Listen check to detect him as normal. He also gains Mettle. He also gains Darkstalker and a permanent nondetection effect.

Purity of Body: A monk is immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save. He may also channel his inner energy with a touch, healing Xd6 damage (where X is half his class level rounded up) or dealing that much damage to undead targets. Furthermore, your purity is so great that your bathwater has the power equivalent of a potion of heal.

Empty Body: You no longer need to eat, breathe or sleep. Your body gains the benefits of an amulet of adaptation. Furthermore, mundane and non-magical weapons and natural weapons blah just passes through you.

Perfect Self: As SDK's ability, but the monk's perfection also causes him to win the game. The player also gets an awesome job, an awesome girlfriend and lots of money.
"You'll still be living in caves."
"Hell I don't mind that."
[spoiler][/spoiler]
befriend (v.): to use mecha-class beam weaponry to inflict grievous bodily harm on a target in the process of proving the validity of your belief system.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2010, 07:33:24 PM »
Still good stuff ...

Flurry + the other improvable monk abilities
have to scale like an Augmentable Psi power that also autoscales.
That makes using Flurry more often + as a party buff, pretty much mandatory.

Tongue of again , could have Tongues the spell at-will, and Dictum too. Both fit the description.

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Re: Designing an "Overpowered" Monk
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2010, 11:12:16 PM »
And it still isn't as bad as a shadowcraft mage. I quite liked what Prime32 did. Fast Movement was almost good enough for a houserule. (It would also allow the monk to get those full attacks in while still being mobile).