Author Topic: General Dread Necro advice  (Read 17387 times)

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JaronK

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2010, 09:46:55 PM »
Playing a Dread Necromancer right is like playing a Rigger in Shadowrun.  You have to like doing it, but if you do it's awesome.

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2010, 10:59:43 PM »
Hi James. Glad to see you back on the boards. :D
I'm not sure for how long; I had a lull in my research.  Hope all is well with all.

OK, Dread Necromancer route 1 -
Dread Necro 8 / Shadow Adept 2 / Incanatrix 10.  Focus on metamagic which gives penalties to your enemies.  Leadership later in the game for a Blackknight / Hexblade / Binder.  You could easily be penalizing your enemies saves by -20 or so.  Also massive bonuses for being a shadow weave user.  This one's my favorite combo as its simple yet pure power, and very enabling for your party (DN's tend to be a glory-vacuum on the rest of the party once you get jut a few really meaty undead critters on your team).

Route 2 -
Dread Necro 8 / Pale Master 2 / Shadow Adept 2 / Lord of the Dead 5 / anything 3.  For the undead mastery stuff.

Routes Insanity -
Dread Necromancer 9/ Ur-Priest 2/ mystic Theurge 8/ Dread Necro 10 (brokeny)
Dread Necro 2/ Binder 1/ Anima mage 10/ Dread Necro 3-9 (bindery)
Dread Necro 8/ Warlock 3/ Eldritch Theurge 9 (blasty)

Keep in mind that you could control around 800 HD of undead at 20th level when well equipped (this is a little bit of an overestimate).  Lets say ALL of them require the 50 gp / HD component cost (which they won't).  That will cost you 40000 gp.  Which is only about 10-20% of your wealth at that level.  Is that worth the Pale Master cost of a caster level and delayed progression?  I say no, but its up to you.

Benly

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #82 on: August 20, 2010, 12:02:40 AM »
Keep in mind that you could control around 800 HD of undead at 20th level when well equipped (this is a little bit of an overestimate).  Lets say ALL of them require the 50 gp / HD component cost (which they won't).  That will cost you 40000 gp.  Which is only about 10-20% of your wealth at that level.  Is that worth the Pale Master cost of a caster level and delayed progression?  I say no, but its up to you.

This presumes you animate them once, at level 20, and they never die. If you are repeatedly animating and replacing lost troops over the course of a career, the cost is much higher and comes at times when you are much less able to afford it.

veekie

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #83 on: August 20, 2010, 08:25:30 AM »
Which is why most serious animaters make use of the spellstitched animate dead or harvest them from the environment. You can increase natural generation by handing out unholy arrows to peasants.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2010, 09:25:08 AM »
OK, Dread Necromancer route 1 -
Dread Necro 8 / Shadow Adept 2 / Incanatrix 10.  Focus on metamagic which gives penalties to your enemies.  Leadership later in the game for a Blackknight / Hexblade / Binder.  You could easily be penalizing your enemies saves by -20 or so.  Also massive bonuses for being a shadow weave user.  This one's my favorite combo as its simple yet pure power, and very enabling for your party (DN's tend to be a glory-vacuum on the rest of the party once you get jut a few really meaty undead critters on your team).
The problem with this build is most of it is outside my list of available sources.

The Leadership idea is interesting, but I'm not sure if I want to run a cohort or not (or if the DM wants me to).  If I do go that route, it will work out nicely because I'm already Lawful Evil, and I could probably whip up some type of Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade mix (also LE) to accomplish a lot of the same debuffing with the sources I have.

Route 2 -
Dread Necro 8 / Pale Master 2 / Shadow Adept 2 / Lord of the Dead 5 / anything 3.  For the undead mastery stuff.
Pale Master is still up in the air for me, but it probably won't be more than two levels.


Routes Insanity -
Dread Necromancer 9/ Ur-Priest 2/ mystic Theurge 8/ Dread Necro 10 (brokeny)
Dread Necro 2/ Binder 1/ Anima mage 10/ Dread Necro 3-9 (bindery)
Dread Necro 8/ Warlock 3/ Eldritch Theurge 9 (blasty)
I'd toyed with Eldritch Theruge.  Slowing my progression by three levels to pick up 2d6 Eldritch Blast damage during that time will be painful, but it might be cool later.


Keep in mind that you could control around 800 HD of undead at 20th level when well equipped (this is a little bit of an overestimate).  Lets say ALL of them require the 50 gp / HD component cost (which they won't).  That will cost you 40000 gp.  Which is only about 10-20% of your wealth at that level.  Is that worth the Pale Master cost of a caster level and delayed progression?  I say no, but its up to you.
The biggest thing in this game won't be the money so much (well, it might be), but will be about the availability of onyx.  The DM may make that a sticking point in the plot, so I'll have to see.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2010, 11:43:57 AM »
Remember that once you have access to 9th level spells, your animation costs go to a flat 100gp per casting.  Plague of Undead gives them max hp too, so you won't be replacing them as often.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Felix Underwood

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2010, 12:31:19 PM »
Not only that, but the 100gp material component for Plague of Undead is paid for in Black Sapphires!!

I'm quite fond of Palemaster now... It took a while to warm up to it, but I like the unlimited control quota for Zombies from the capstone ability (especially with Awaken Undead cast upon the lot of them).

I know it's not terribly optimized, but I'm working on a Dread Necro 8 / Palemaster 10 (then either 2 levels of DN to finish it off, or throw in a level of Mindbender and Wayfarer Guide for flavor)

PhaedrusXY

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2010, 12:35:26 PM »
If you really think the onyx could be a problem, you could also go for the "coup de grace with a Fell Animate cantrip" trick. It makes it harder to pull off, though, as you have to drop enemies somehow without outright killing them.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2010, 12:45:38 PM »
I seriously thought about Fell Animate.  The only sucky thing is that Dread Necros don't get cantrips, so I'd have to blow a 4th level spell slot on it by using Inflict Light Wounds or Chill Touch.

But it might not matter.  For all I know, the DM may use "onyx shortage" as an easy-to-use plot hook for a jewelry store heist adventure.  I'll have to ask him to see, I think.  Like I said earlier: right now it's not a problem to the point that I have a higher-level friendly necromancer that will just sell me undead to command via Rebuke undead at a rate of 25 gp per HD.  He also cast Continual Flame for me for just the 50 gp component, so it looks like I can get him to cast spells on my for free.

I'm really looking forward to 4th level when I can cast Command Undead.  Blow 200 gp up front and 3 SP every four days for an ogre zombie at level 4?  Yes please!
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2010, 03:06:53 PM »
Maybe if you got Craft(Gemcutting), you could turn small amounts of Onyx into valuable amounts of Onyx?
The material itself is pretty cheap, but after you cut it nicely and then engrave runes on a pinhead level of detail...
Steps(using previous step as the raw material for next step's Craft)
Raw Onyx->Cut Onyx->Engraved Onyx

Just need a nice Fabricate to round it out, if you could get hold of that.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

jameswilliamogle

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2010, 03:10:17 PM »
This presumes you animate them once, at level 20, and they never die. If you are repeatedly animating and replacing lost troops over the course of a career, the cost is much higher and comes at times when you are much less able to afford it.
True, but how many quality undead are you going to run into at that level, and how many are going to get the magic vanishing act from the DM?  I never had any issues with wealth when I ran mine through the last 12 levels in a treasure poor game, but the onyx availability might be enough to screw him over.

I didn't see your sources list; sry about that.  Initiate of the 7-fold veil can be PrC'd into at 9th since you get Dispel Magic at 8th, and is pretty awesome in any game (it sucks that you do have some crappy feats to take for it).  The Last 5 levels could be just about anything.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 03:13:50 PM by jameswilliamogle »

Benly

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2010, 08:21:43 PM »
True, but how many quality undead are you going to run into at that level, and how many are going to get the magic vanishing act from the DM?  I never had any issues with wealth when I ran mine through the last 12 levels in a treasure poor game, but the onyx availability might be enough to screw him over.

Well, if you only animate undead when you run into The Perfect Corpse, you're not going to be much of a horde master, are you? ;)

And barring a full collection of Perfect Corpses (which, let's face it, is unlikely unless you decide to skive off whatever adventure the rest of the party is trying to have and go pyrohydra hunting on your own) it doesn't take DM fiat to drastically reduce your army, just one enemy caster with an AoE. With free animation, restocking in the field is not a concern and you don't need to wait for The Perfect Corpse to come along to fill out your army - add whatever corpses you find and if you have too many when there's a dead pyrohydra lying around tell your skeletons to smash each other to bits until you're sufficiently under your control limit.

Which is why most serious animaters make use of the spellstitched animate dead or harvest them from the environment. You can increase natural generation by handing out unholy arrows to peasants.

As I've said, due to the bugged creation cost and the fact that it applies a LA - template, I have seen more DMs who disallow PC spellstitching (especially PC spellstitching to nullify component costs) than those who permit it. If your DM is completely fine with it then sure, have a blast. "Handing out unholy arrows to peasants" is one of those things that works by RAW but is likely to get you a "This Is Stupid" from a DM - but again, maybe your DM is fine with it.

Remember that once you have access to 9th level spells, your animation costs go to a flat 100gp per casting.  Plague of Undead gives them max hp too, so you won't be replacing them as often.

For a character starting at level 2 it might be best to have options that are available before level 18.

veekie

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #92 on: August 21, 2010, 06:38:28 AM »
Well, most of those DMs would have issues with legions of undead anyway, so not much changes(you couldn't run much of an animator under one of those anyway).
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Benly

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2010, 06:54:53 AM »
Well, most of those DMs would have issues with legions of undead anyway, so not much changes(you couldn't run much of an animator under one of those anyway).

This is not so much the case as far as I've seen. The thing is that PC spellstitching and peasant-wight farming both have a sense of being a use of the mechanics in unintended fashion, while Pale Master and general raising-up-skeletons with Animate Dead are both using things exactly as they appear to be intended.

Tenebrous Apostate

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2010, 12:51:18 PM »
Well, most of those DMs would have issues with legions of undead anyway, so not much changes(you couldn't run much of an animator under one of those anyway).

This is not so much the case as far as I've seen. The thing is that PC spellstitching and peasant-wight farming both have a sense of being a use of the mechanics in unintended fashion, while Pale Master and general raising-up-skeletons with Animate Dead are both using things exactly as they appear to be intended.

Spell-stiching is expensive as hell anyway... I was thinking about spelstiching an undead Cleric but then I read the template and as I understand it the cost for a 19 wisdom spellstiching is more than 200.000gp (!!!!!!) And some people are thinking of mass production...!?!??!?! How?
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Benly

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2010, 02:01:37 PM »
Spell-stiching is expensive as hell anyway... I was thinking about spelstiching an undead Cleric but then I read the template and as I understand it the cost for a 19 wisdom spellstiching is more than 200.000gp (!!!!!!) And some people are thinking of mass production...!?!??!?! How?

Technically the cost of production is 1,000 GP and 9,500 XP. Given that the normal gold:XP ratio in item creation costs is 12.5:1 rather than 1:9.5, this sets off (for me, at least) alarm bells that perhaps the pricing was not exactly thought through very well. Reverse-converting this to a market value by the same XP:GP ratio that magic item creation uses produces a cost of 119,750 GP for a hired artificer to perform the spellstitching for you, or a bit less than 1/6 of a level 20 character's wealth.

Personally, it is my belief that the creation rules offered are an ill-considered afterthought, and that the LA - indicates a template not intended for application to PCs. I am aware that not everyone agrees with me, but I think that presuming the only reason a DM would deny it is because of either personal enmity or a desire to prevent the use of Animate Dead is, perhaps, shortsighted.

JaronK

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2010, 05:09:52 PM »
It could be read as 1kgp per point of wisdom, which makes it a little more sane... but only a little more.  19kgp is a drop in the bucket compared to what you get.

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2011, 10:32:19 AM »
Thread necromancy for my necromancer!

So, I just hit level 12 (DN 8/Divine Oracle 4), and I'm looking for a feat.  I currently have:

  • Law Devotion
  • Weapon Finesse (I needed this for low level survivability)
  • Tomb Tainted Soul
  • Spell Focus (Necromancy)
  • Improved Initiative
  • Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion) (for the PrC)

I was hoping to take Split Ray, but I realized that that requires another metamagic feat to pull off.  Sadly, right now, I'm leaning toward Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy).  It's boring, but it would still be useful.  I'm hoping you guys have some other ideas.

Next level, I'm going to take a level of Mindbender, just for shiggles and the telepathy (it fits for flavor reasons as well with my imp familiar).  So, that may or may not have a bearing on your suggestions.  Here's the list of sources available.

[spoiler]
Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis
PHB II
Complete Mage
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Champion
Complete Warrior
Spell Compendium
Book of Vile Darkness
Parts of Unearthed Arcana (flaws, traits, and spell point rules apply)[/spoiler]

Thanks! :D
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2011, 12:24:19 PM »
Sickening Touch from Complete Mage?  The effect isn't that hot, but it does give you a caster level boost to all Necromancy spells, which is the majority of the spell list.  You also should be able to stack its effect onto Charnel Touch.  Alternatively Fearsome Necromancy for no-save Shakened each time you cast a Necromancy spell.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

RobbyPants

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Re: General Dread Necro advice
« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2011, 12:53:03 PM »
Which book is Fearsome Necromancy in?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]