Author Topic: Optimized Races Niche Compendium  (Read 37145 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2010, 02:05:17 PM »
Ah, again you get the ability to kill & reanimate symbiotes, as well as offensive medallions of thought projection.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2010, 10:47:51 PM »
The best I see for plants is added an LA1, 3RHD plant creature, the needlefolk (MM2 158). The elf-hating is amusing, too I do have a lingering feeling of a +1LA template that would work tho...

I enjoyed that.
The peasant army at level 2 is quite nice.

What are we to do with the Int -- part? I thought all PCs were required to have an intelligence of 3 (and that if it dropped below that it was boosted to it, but if it turned null then they were under the DMs control?). Either way vermin LA+0 is a great find.

sharn are added since they seem the ultimate ghestalt race.

Looked around more and yup they seem to be at the top.

The tibet LA yes i should have mentioned but I'm not sure if they are optimal at their niche. Thoughts on alternatives?

And are those outsider dwarves optimal at any particular range where they beat out warlocks?

Thanks prime but what I was after was if anyone knew if this was the most optimal playable magical beast race. Templates should be considered as well

Yeah, I'd much rather take the Forest Gnome for a SCM, and they're core (MM1).[/quote]Why? For pass without trace? or the +1 for combat or the extra hide?

whats the lowest ecl race with more than one pair of arms.
i remember one from dragon magzn that was a +1 or +2 i cant remember atm..
Anthropomorphic giant squid needs the amphibious template but is good to go at 8 arms for 3RHD and 1LA. I realize the aversion to anthro animals...

Do we have agreement that the Daelkyr half-blood is more optimal than the elan?
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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And healed. Don't forget that.
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It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2010, 11:02:51 PM »
Technically speaking "--" is not lower than 3. 

You can do a similar thing with the dustform template, but that adds on nonliving and construct as well.
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Prime32

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2010, 11:03:26 PM »
Thanks prime but what I was after was if anyone knew if this was the most optimal playable magical beast race. Templates should be considered as well
Had a thread for this before. No one was able to find anything better, especially not Large (and capable of wielding weapons normally, to boot). It's better than a fighter of equal level anyway, and would probably make a kickass unarmed swordsage.
Quote
Abrian, Medium
CE Magical beast (extraplanar), 2HD +1LA (d10/2+Int/Good BAB,Fort,Ref)
Natural weapons: beak 1d3/19-20/x3(!), kick 1d8
+2 natural armor
Speed: 50ft
Special attacks: Augmented critical (see natural weapons), Shriek (20ft burst, Fort save or dazed for 1 round, increases in power with additional abrians, does not affect abrians)
Special qualities: Darkvision 60ft, low-light vision, sonic resistance 10
Skills: +4 Spot
Abilities: Str 13 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 7 Wis 11 Cha 10 (Str +2 Dex +6 Con +2 Int -4 Wis +0 Cha +0)
Humanoid arms, but Str score is halved for determining carrying capacity
Quote
Abrian, Large
CE Magical beast (extraplanar), 3HD +1LA (d10/2+Int/Good BAB,Fort,Ref)
Natural weapons: beak 1d4/19-20/x3(!), kick 2d6
+4 natural armor
Speed: 50ft
Special attacks: Augmented critical (see natural weapons), Shriek (20ft burst, Fort save or dazed for 1 round, increases in power with additional abrians, does not affect abrians)
Special qualities: Darkvision 60ft, low-light vision, sonic resistance 10
Skills: +4 Spot
Abilities: Str 21 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 7 Wis 11 Cha 10 (Str +10 Dex +4 Con +6 Int -4 Wis +0 Cha +0)
Humanoid arms, but Str score is halved for determining carrying capacity
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 11:08:16 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Agita

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2010, 11:10:12 PM »
Beguilers (from UE) are Small Magical Beasts, get three natural weapons, a prehensile tail, True Seeing (!) and some other stuff... for +0 LA and no racial hd (or rather, one which is lost when they take a class level).
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Prime32

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2010, 11:11:23 PM »
Beguilers (from UE) are Small Magical Beasts, get three natural weapons, a prehensile tail, True Seeing (!) and some other stuff... for +0 LA and no racial hd (or rather, one which is lost when they take a class level).
...OSTRICH KIIIIICK!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 09:05:17 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2010, 11:55:56 PM »
Beguilers (from UE) are Small Magical Beasts, get three natural weapons, a prehensile tail, True Seeing (!) and some other stuff... for +0 LA and no racial hd (or rather, one which is lost when they take a class level).
Yeah, but cohort only, so they're really like LA+2.
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Agita

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2010, 07:50:59 AM »
Beguilers (from UE) are Small Magical Beasts, get three natural weapons, a prehensile tail, True Seeing (!) and some other stuff... for +0 LA and no racial hd (or rather, one which is lost when they take a class level).
Yeah, but cohort only, so they're really like LA+2.
Unless I'm seriously missing something, there's absolutely nothing anywhere that says they're cohort-only. (And in any case, declaring a race cohort-only is kind of dumb.)
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2010, 10:19:58 AM »
Beguilers (from UE) are Small Magical Beasts, get three natural weapons, a prehensile tail, True Seeing (!) and some other stuff... for +0 LA and no racial hd (or rather, one which is lost when they take a class level).
Yeah, but cohort only, so they're really like LA+2.
Unless I'm seriously missing something, there's absolutely nothing anywhere that says they're cohort-only. (And in any case, declaring a race cohort-only is kind of dumb.)

Shining South overrides it (2004 vs 2003).
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Agita

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2010, 10:22:54 AM »
Beguilers (from UE) are Small Magical Beasts, get three natural weapons, a prehensile tail, True Seeing (!) and some other stuff... for +0 LA and no racial hd (or rather, one which is lost when they take a class level).
Yeah, but cohort only, so they're really like LA+2.
Unless I'm seriously missing something, there's absolutely nothing anywhere that says they're cohort-only. (And in any case, declaring a race cohort-only is kind of dumb.)

Shining South overrides it (2004 vs 2003).
Yeah, obviously I'm blind. I was even looking at the right book (it's not even in UE). Still, I'm of the firm opinion that the cohort or not cohort classification is retarded.  Even then, it's still a great race, if only for the True Seeing.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Havok4

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2010, 01:06:52 PM »
I think the writers used the cohort only tag on creatures they think that would have difficulty functioning in a humanoid dominated society but have little in the way of balance issues. This is incredibly inconsistent though.

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2010, 04:50:21 PM »

Do we have agreement that the Daelkyr half-blood is more optimal than the elan?

I'd say they are more fluid/adaptible than the elan. Caveat being that your DM may limit your symbiotic treasure. If that is open Daelkyr Halfblood is a slam dunk.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2010, 03:32:41 AM »
No... Just... No.  There's nothing in the RAW that makes outsiders different from humanoids or aberrations or construct(living construct)s.  Especially since the statblocks just have (tiefling, first level warrior) with a single class level and no hd.
Quote
I'm not the rule lawyer on this. From what I remember there was a 3.0 to 3.5 change that ended up favoring humanoids (barring other specific races like pixie). I'll check on this for you tho.
Okay here is the answer:

Refer to Monster Manual page 290.
Quote:
Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels.
It's only humanoids, and only 1 or less HD, unless there's a specific exception


Daelkyr half-blood are added.

I am still taking suggestions/opinions on races
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:19:04 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2010, 03:36:26 AM »
Quote
Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels.
If it were only humanoids they would have said

Quote
Humanoids with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels.

That said, it seems like it would only apply to things which list "1 outsider hd" or "1 dragon hd" in their statblock anyway, which are rare-to-nonexistent.  Tieflings, for example, never have racial hd to begin with - they just have class levels.

It's pretty clear that you won't be a tiefling outsider1/fighter1 just because you have the outsider type.  See also the commentary on the varoot, which actually does have a single outsider hit die, but according to wizards loses it.

It's pretty obvious the header is an artifact of the "only humanoids are PCs" bias that also crept into the dragonborn template.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 03:56:29 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2010, 09:41:14 PM »
Large bump whilst my no hit, no sr, no save index got me busy.

+1000 .... by a long shot ...
Hmm I'm just as confused. The stats are superior balance out that 1 DC right? I confess that I don't play SCM's. That more than real thing turns me off.

I've taken another look through. Here are the things I'd like opinions on:
Tibbits. Are they optimal besides the 'imma housecat lolz'?
Lowest LA for largest size. LA1 large is easy. Are there any Huge races that get their first class level at ECL3?
Animal, and oozes are not playable, correct?
Any decent elemental races?
Any PrCs or other nices I'm missing?
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2010, 10:31:51 PM »
Outsider should probably include racial class 0 tieflings/aasimar.

Adding in a horizontal rule at the end of your spoilblocks is a good idea.

I've updated my lesser planetouched guide with a table of stat mods.  There are a few with +4 dex or +4 con, and lots with net positive +4 mods.

You still should include the greensnake naga, since they've got really good stats for +1 LA (and a weird language-based telepathy).

Also, you're missing evasion from the sharn statblock :p
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:34:25 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2010, 09:32:31 PM »
Outsider should probably include racial class 0 tieflings/aasimar.

Adding in a horizontal rule at the end of your spoilblocks is a good idea.

I've updated my lesser planetouched guide with a table of stat mods.  There are a few with +4 dex or +4 con, and lots with net positive +4 mods.

You still should include the greensnake naga, since they've got really good stats for +1 LA (and a weird language-based telepathy).

Also, you're missing evasion from the sharn statblock :p
Yea I've been thinking about adding alternates on a lot of the close calls. Will do.

How do you want the horizontal rule done?

I did use your guide to go back and overwrite on of the races with one of the +4 net (and no negatives) lesser planetouched.

Greensake naga: +2Str, +4Dex, +1Nat, 1d3 con poison, 30' (Ex) telepathy, OA Taint immunity, Alternate form form human legs is decent for LA1. Is it the fastest way to gain Telepathy? ECL2 is early but 30' is small...

Evasion added  ;)

Also is there any plant race better than needlefolk?
Quote from: stats
LA+1, 2RHD, +2Str, +2Con, -4int, +4wis, -6cha, +4nat
In forests +16Hide when still or +8moving up to 50%, 1d12 needles 20'increment, 200'max

Keep in mind that the first and the following three posts are incongruent. The first will be amended when I'm happy with the other three
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2010, 11:22:02 PM »

Also, maybe cheshire cats?  +3 LA and 3 HD, but the racial casting and invisiblity somewhat counteract it.

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Bauglir

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2010, 11:34:35 PM »
Since when can you combine races like the Fire Elf and the Grey Elf or the Frostblood Orc with the Desert Orc? That's like being a Strongheart Wispling or a Whisper Svirfneblin. Or, honestly, like being a Frostblood Human or a Wild Dwarf.

EDIT: fixed where I stopped typing midsentence and forgot to start again
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 01:40:09 AM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

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Re: Optimized Races Niche Compendium
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2010, 11:44:32 PM »
Also is there any plant race better than needlefolk?
Quote from: stats
LA+1, 2RHD, +2Str, +2Con, -4int, +4wis, -6cha, +4nat
In forests +16Hide when still or +8moving up to 50%, 1d12 needles 20'increment, 200'max

Keep in mind that the first and the following three posts are incongruent. The first will be amended when I'm happy with the other three
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]