Bull Rush and Reach Weapons (Dungeon Crasher Related)

[dirkformica]

I'm just getting back to 3.5.  I've seen the Dungeon Crasher alternative class feature in Dungeonscape and it seems like fun.  But I've never used Bull Rush... ever.  How does Bull Rush interact with Reach weapons?  If I have a Fighter charge with something like a Guisarm/Glaive/etc. do I still need to enter the enemy's space?  Can I push it with the weapon or do I have to use my whole body and thus need to enter their square?  Also, how does this interact with the feat Knockback from Races of Stone?

I guess I'm specifically looking for the attack sequence for a Dungeon Crasher with Knockback, but I'd also like to just generally know how Bull Rushing actually plays out in the game.

[Shadowhunter]

How does Bull Rush interact with Reach weapons?

Not at all normally.

If I have a Fighter charge with something like a Guisarm/Glaive/etc. do I still need to enter the enemy's space?

Yes.

Can I push it with the weapon or do I have to use my whole body and thus need to enter their square?

You need the 'omph' of your body normally.

Also, how does this interact with the feat Knockback from Races of Stone?

If you have knockback, then you can Bullrush with reach, don't need to enter the square and in all general things do exactly what you're after

[dirkformica]

Thank you for your reply, I think I have a better idea of what's going down now.

Follow-up questions:
1.  Attacker WITHOUT reach, but who has power attack, improved bull rush, knockback feat, and dungeon crasher smacks an enemy who has a wall 10 feet behind it.  Attacker power attacks and hits for some damage.  He gets a free bull rush attempt from knockback, say that succeeds by 5, so the enemy is knocked back 10 feet.  It hits the wall and triggers dungeon crasher for some more damage.  Does the enemy provoke an attack of opportunity from the attacker when it is moved out of a square that the attacker threatens?

2. Any tips or tricks to get dungeon crasher to activate more often?  You're not always going to have a handy wall 5 or 10 feet behind the enemy.  Would flight allow you to crash them into the ground?  How about a really big jump?  That last one makes me think of the Leap Attack feat from Complete Adventurer...

3. EDITED TO ADD: Also, how do these options interact with tactical feats from Complete Warrior like Shock Trooper and Combat Brute?  If I had both ST and CB along with the aforementioned feats/class abilities, would I be able to power attack on a charge on round one and trigger all of the various tactical maneuvers such as Heedless Charge to shift the PA penalty to AC, Directed Bull Rush off my Knockback to force them left or right a square, possibly Domino Rush if I knock someone through another person (this one seems REALLY weird conceptually) and next round Advancing Blows from CB (thanks to the auto bull rush from Knockback,) and if I power attack Momentum Swing also activates?

[Shadowhunter]

1:
I highly doubt a bullrushed opponent provokes an AoO when he's being flung backwards. Somehow I get the feeling of interupting AoO's within attack resolutions and other assorted headaches...

2:
Leadership with a focused Conjurer spamming Wall of X?
Whether or not you're allowed to Bullrush them into the ground is strictly DM territory and while I see little to no problem with it on a principal basis, the reality is that your DM will probably get tired of you massing out huge amounts of damage per turn


As far as jumping, Leap Attack and DungeonCrasher go, Goliaths are the race to use.
Qualify for Knockback, always running jumps, racial bonus to jump, Large Size when it suits them (opposing Str check...).
Even if you don't manage to set up some dungeoncrashing, you can still do your normal leap attack charge routine.

[dirkformica]

Thanks again.  I was actually editing my post to refine and add question 3 when you replied.  I also now see in the description of Bull Rush on p 154 of PHB "(Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved.  So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)"  So I don't get an AoO on the opponent I knock back, but my allies would.

Yeah, a Leap Attacking Goliath with a reach weapon along with Power Attack, Knockback, Combat Brute, Shock Trooper and Dungeon Crasher looks like a pretty fun build.  Oddly, adding the Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion for Pounce could actually disrupt the flow since your last attack might not hit so you would not get to Knock them back (and you obviously don't want to knock them back on the first hit if they'll then be out of range for follow-up attacks.) 

And I don't think I'd ever do it, but I have to wonder: if you did have Pounce, if you also had Whirlwind Attack can that be used at the end of the charge with a reach weapon to hit and knock back a crowd?  To make it even more feat intensive, make sure to use the Spiked Chain to threaten more enemies. 

[Shadowhunter]

I have a distinct feeling I discussed this not so long ago.
Ah, yes, here's a link
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8560.msg286707#msg286707

Yes, the synergy between the two tactical feats, dungeon crashing, Knockback and leap attack is ridiculous.
Sure, if you somehow manage to get Whirlwind Attack as part of a charge (not normally possible, but should be doable with Pounce) and you have enough feats to get the chain then it would be even more awesome.

Now tell me, what CR8 encounter can take 326 damage in a round?

Now give me a threefold cheer for Bullrucharing

[veekie]

2. Any tips or tricks to get dungeon crasher to activate more often?  You're not always going to have a handy wall 5 or 10 feet behind the enemy.  Would flight allow you to crash them into the ground?  How about a really big jump?  That last one makes me think of the Leap Attack feat from Complete Adventurer...

As long as you can get above your opponent, you can ground pound him, yes.
It's one of the ways you can add Pounce to your hammering, with an aerial charge.

[RobbyPants]

Goomba stomp!  I didn't know Mario was a dungeon crasher!


(Warning.  Clicking that link will cost you hours of your life.)

[Andras]

Thanks again.  I was actually editing my post to refine and add question 3 when you replied.  I also now see in the description of Bull Rush on p 154 of PHB "(Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved.  So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)"  So I don't get an AoO on the opponent I knock back, but my allies would.

Yeah, a Leap Attacking Goliath with a reach weapon along with Power Attack, Knockback, Combat Brute, Shock Trooper and Dungeon Crasher looks like a pretty fun build.  Oddly, adding the Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion for Pounce could actually disrupt the flow since your last attack might not hit so you would not get to Knock them back (and you obviously don't want to knock them back on the first hit if they'll then be out of range for follow-up attacks.) 

And I don't think I'd ever do it, but I have to wonder: if you did have Pounce, if you also had Whirlwind Attack can that be used at the end of the charge with a reach weapon to hit and knock back a crowd?  To make it even more feat intensive, make sure to use the Spiked Chain to threaten more enemies. 

If you take Goliath, take the 1st level Barbarian Racial Substitution Level Mountain Rage from Races of Stone. You become Large, instead of just getting the bonuses. You get extra str and 10' extra reach.  I played a Goliath Barbarian/Fighter w Dungeon Crasher w a Spiked Chain an the 20' reach when raging was just brutal. Anything that provoked got smacked into a wall for 10d6+4.5xStr

[Echoes]

I've been doing some fighter tech musing recently, and hit on a fairly decent defensive combo that works great with the super-bullrush schtick: take Robilar's Gambit and (possibly) Elusive Target. Because the effects of Power Attack last until the start of your next turn, whenever you hit someone with an AoO you get to bull rush them. This means that enemies generally will only get one attack against you before being sent flying. This is good, because your AC is abysmal. Add in Elusive Target and you can use the "first swing misses" ability + Robilar's Gambit to negate a single creature entirely.

Further, let's synergize off the AoO-schtick and take Thicket of Blades (item + Martial Stance, or 2-level dip). Now, anyone who tries to approach you gets smashed back, perfectly set up for a charge on our turn. This has the dual benefits of providing crowd control and allowing us to always be set up for a charge (provided there is room enough to begin with).