Author Topic: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?  (Read 6872 times)

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Ivory Knight

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Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« on: July 26, 2010, 01:53:06 PM »
Couldn't find anything remotely centered on Dragonmarks, just scattered quotes here and there.
Most quotes dealt with Blade of the Orien, using it for Teleport-Pouncer builds, Nosomatic Chirurgeon to get a Warlock into PrC that have "cast spells of X level" as a prerequisite, or Mark of the Dauntless(immune to daze) for Celerity-abuse.

I read Dragonmarked a few days ago and a few things caught my eye:

Nosomatic Chirurgeon does give Adept Spellcasting(for Eberron Adepts this even includes 1 domain), if you don't have any spellcasting. While not great, it might be a decent way to get divine spellcasting for PrC-Prerequisites. Better than a Cleric-dip? No way, but it avoids multiclass penalties(some DM still enforce this crappy rule) and comes with a slightly different spell list.

House Lyrandars PrC looked average, but I like the spell it's based on(gust of wind) and there are far worse Fighter-PrC out there. Ways to power it up to the max?

Unbound Scroll PrC: Loses 1 casterlevel, but the capstone looks like it might make up for the loss(basically: burn one use of your Dragonmark SLA, to use a scroll without expending it. Up to 6th level with Greater Dragonmark, even the crappy cantrip-SLA of a least mark can be traded for any 2nd level Spell you happen to have on a scroll).
Metamagic Scroll caught my eye, how would it interact with Echoing Spell?
Especially if the scroll was higher casterlevel(say a Magic Missile at CL 9) and used with the capstone ability(to avoid losing the scroll), I figured it would return 1 hour later at CL-4(twice, since CL-8 would still be enough to cast Magic Missile at CL 1).

While not great, the Vadalis Beastmaster could make for a decent mounted combatant that also gets Polymorph & some Summoning(Nature's Ally I-IV +template: magebred).

The Breath of Siberys Feat makes the already good PrC a bit better, with the right setup(Dragonborn, Dragonfire Adept, or Half Dragon).
Would a temporary Breath Weapon from Totemist or Dragon Wildshape qualify for the feat?

Some of the other feats struck me as decent, especially with expending a use of greater dragonmark to buff your whole party(including your summons, if you're going Druid or Malconvoker).
Am I wrong?

+1 inherent bonus to an attribute(choice out of 2 for each true dragonmark) worth a feat? I don't think so, but than again I almost always have to few feats ;)

Marked Homunculus(1st level Wizard/Sorcerer Spell, or Artificer Infusion): Seen it used with a questionable Vestige in a Nanobot-build.
Wouldn't it make a nice addition to Hordeficers or summoning focused casters even without the ability to spam it?
Worth to take the lesser/greater Mark of Making to get to the better Homunculi?

Looks like, there isn't even enough useful stuff to make a Handbook out of it. Does anybody know of anything potentially good, that I didn't mention?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 01:55:16 PM »
Spellthief's steal SLA gets you unlimited uses of your dragonmarks.  Which makes some of them decent.
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McPoyo

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2010, 02:26:51 PM »
Adept list gets some spells you normally have to use weird trickery to get as divine spells, or at earlier levels in a couple cases.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Arz

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2010, 03:07:05 PM »
Spellthief's steal SLA gets you unlimited uses of your dragonmarks.  Which makes some of them decent.
Your use/day is still limited, so I don't get it?

I'm not sure where you are going w/ this thread. I have created iconic foils for each of the houses and played a number of them.

Actually the storm fist? looks quite bad but as a dm throwing my pcs to there doom is quite fun. Keep thinking a factotum/marshal w/ shape soulmeld-mauling gauntlets might do the trick.

Deneith wardens have mettle. Subduing strike can generate some impressive numbers.

Human Paladin 6/ Dragonmark Heir 4/ Vadalis Beastkeeper 10

Paladin 1     Least Dragonmark, Favored in House
Paladin 2
Paladin 3     Mounted Combat
Paladin 4
Paladin 5
Planar Paladin 6     Power Attack
Dragonmark Heir 1
Dragonmark Heir 2
Vadalis Beastkeeper 1    Dragonmark Smite
Vadalis Beastkeeper 2
Vadalis Beastkeeper 3    Ride by Attack
Vadalis Beastkeeper 4    Feral Mark
Vadalis Beastkeeper 5
Vadalis Beastkeeper 6    Spirited Charge
Vadalis Beastkeeper 7    Open
Vadalis Beastkeeper 8
Vadalis Beastkeeper 9    Trample
Vadalis Beastkeeper 10    Cavalry Charger
Dragonmark Heir 3
Dragonmark Heir 4

High base Saves
2 free templates for mount
Full mount progression
Full smite damage
4th lvl spells
High DC charm/compulsions vs poor save

Favorite mount @ECL 13: Unicorn (Celestial magebred dire horrid rhinoceros)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2010, 03:43:08 PM »
Steal SLA is different than steal spell.

The person it's stolen from doesn't lose any usages of the ability - it's just temporarily inactive.  Thus, steal your own dragonmark ability, use it, steal it again, et cetera et cetera.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2010, 03:51:58 PM »
Favorite mount @ECL 13: Unicorn (Celestial magebred dire horrid rhinoceros)
:lol I can see that now.

Knight: I have a unicorn.
Peasant Girl: Oh really? Can I see it!
Knight: Sure. *Points*
Girl: I... er... uhh...
Knight: Want to pet it?
Girl: No... I think I'll pass.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2010, 04:43:47 PM »
The Dragonmarked Sorcerer feat helps with cutting down on feat expenditure for spellcaster builds.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
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Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »
Psh, we have handbooks on deleted threads. There's enough here for a handbook.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Arz

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2010, 06:09:10 PM »
Yes, but how to organize all the variables? Most of the marks use up few class lvls but can easily eat up half your feat selections. Some of the best deals come from items but I've never seen anyone break down the cost breaks on the house items.

Ok, I'm definetly getting a spellthief economist as my next henchman.

Ivory Knight

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2010, 07:05:04 PM »
I had no definite character in mind, when I wrote my question.
Some musings on Unbound Scroll:
Gnomes make pretty good spellcasters already, is the ability to trade their Mark-SLA's(least mark gets usable 7/day if I did the math right) for any scroll from 0 to 6th level worth 1 level of lost spell progression?

@ Mad_Linguist: Can you even steal your own SLA's?
Sounds kinda like the discussion I had with a DM of mine, concerning touch attacks and electricity healing on a Mechanatrix(He ruled, I would need area effects, because otherwise I can't 'attack' myself. I pointed at the Cleric, touching himself or the Tomb Tainted Dread Necro's use of charnel touch).
Regardless, I

@ Arz: :clap to your 'Unicorn', finally a specimen that works for male riders. Too bad, Dragonmark Heir doesn't  progress your Mount at all.
I haven't looked into the Items, definitely worth a section. If Dragonmarks are worth a handbook(I'm not all that sure, they are setting specific and I don't recall anyone asking for a Handbook on Faerunian Spellfire).

McPoyo

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2010, 08:55:42 PM »
There was one. Three, actually, at 339. Spellfire, I mean.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2010, 10:26:19 PM »
Quote
@ Mad_Linguist: Can you even steal your own SLA's?
Sounds kinda like the discussion I had with a DM of mine, concerning touch attacks and electricity healing on a Mechanatrix(He ruled, I would need area effects, because otherwise I can't 'attack' myself. I pointed at the Cleric, touching himself or the Tomb Tainted Dread Necro's use of charnel touch).
Sounds like kind of a silly ruling.  Does he let liches use inflict light wounds on themselves?


Sure you can steal your own SLAs.  No reason why not.  You're a voluntary target, so it's a standard action, and the tradeoff is only really beneficial outside of combat or if you have some sort of action type reduction for the actual usage of your sla.  There are a few ways to make your dragonmark a swift action to use, which is pretty cool.


Anyway, here's my moderately houseruled spellthief from a game that never quite got fully off the ground:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=171623
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 10:34:04 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Shadowhunter

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 09:18:14 AM »
Artificer/Heir of Siberys:

Persistent Spell onto a Minor Schema of Unfettered Heroism.
Take Unlock Dragonmark.

Burn 1 AP, use any one of the spell-likes you could qualify for.
Spam Heir of Siberys Marks. Greater Dragonmarks

At-Will Mass Heal?

At-Will Control Weather for example.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 09:21:03 AM by Shadowhunter »
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

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[/quote]
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Arz

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 12:23:53 PM »
Another fun trick is swift/immed use of mark of hospitality. Take your sniper shot then instant house yourself and since you are hospitable; dinners in the oven, the bath is ready, and the decor the newest Zil ariship trend. Or if someone tries to fireball you, house the party up. Sure you could dispel but secure shelter-ing gets style points and skill checks for the spiffy.

Early qual Arcane Trickster w/ Lesser Dragonmarks. Or other classes like stormcaster.

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 12:34:12 PM »
Another use I've seen is to gain immunity to daze, for incredibly broken celerity shenanigans. It does eat up two feats, though, because you need any of the True dragonmarks to take Mark of the Dauntless (daze & stun immunity).
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 12:57:49 PM »
I second Breath of Siberys is a must have for Dragonfire Adepts, +10d6 total damage with Tiamat's breath, very nice.
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[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
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fuinjutsu

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2010, 12:22:02 AM »
Favorite mount @ECL 13: Unicorn (Celestial magebred dire horrid rhinoceros)
:lol I can see that now.

Knight: I have a unicorn.
Peasant Girl: Oh really? Can I see it!
Knight: Sure. *Points*
Girl: I... er... uhh...
Knight: Want to pet it?
Girl: No... I think I'll pass.

That reminds me.  did we decide it was legal to train your animal mount as a warbeast?
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2010, 12:46:04 AM »
Remember TML that you have to pick a SA-able target to steal an SLA. You can't flank yourself or catch yourself flat-footed. Its a good thing that class doesn't get improved uncanny dodge...There are auto-SA abilities, but its probably more work than you'd like.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2010, 12:50:24 AM »
Remember TML that you have to pick a SA-able target to steal an SLA. You can't flank yourself or catch yourself flat-footed. Its a good thing that class doesn't get improved uncanny dodge...There are auto-SA abilities, but its probably more work than you'd like.
Quote
If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell-like ability with a touch as a standard action.
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altpersona

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Re: Has anybody seriously tried to optimize Dragonmarks?
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2010, 02:21:22 AM »
Favorite mount @ECL 13: Unicorn (Celestial magebred dire horrid rhinoceros)
:lol I can see that now.

Knight: I have a unicorn.
Peasant Girl: Oh really? Can I see it!
Knight: Sure. *Points*
Girl: I... er... uhh...
Knight: Want to pet it?
Girl: No... I think I'll pass.

That reminds me.  did we decide it was legal to train your animal mount as a warbeast?


if im thinking of the same template as you, why would you not be able to? did your mount get to smart to train? or somehow stop qualifying?
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