Let's talk about a rogue's handbook

[Dictum Mortuum]

Real question is why is he wasting so much for so little. A feat slot to pretend he is dead (is that a bluff or disguise skill check) that requires both an intimidate action to use (thus cannot be flat-footed) and a standard action to stop using.

You can buy protection from all death effects & energy drain for 25,000gp that requires no action on your part.

I say again, why is he wasting so much for so little.

It doesn't take up a feat slot, only a Heal check reveals you're dead (and really, who puts ranks in Heal when they could just buy a CLW wand), and it provides immunity to quite a bit more than death effects and energy drain pretty much everything.

Fixed

[McPoyo]

Okay, since I said Rogues can make good debuffers via the use of Ambush feats.

Lesser Tiefling Rogue 18/Swordsage 2 (note: the Swordsage levels are mainly there for another 1d6 sneak attack and aren't actually necessary.  Two more Rogue levels, or a Rogue and a Spellthief level, work fine)

Feats:

1. Staggering Strike
3. Sickening Strike
6. Terrifying Strike
9. Deafening Strike
12. Gloom Strike
15. Maiming Strike
18. Craven

Note: most of the feats can be swapped around, so long as you have enough sneak attack dice.

What weapon you use isn't too important.  You can go Unarmed Swordsage and be a fairly effective debuffer while naked.

Crippling Strike is a taken Special Ability.  Other than that, it's up to you.

When in Assassin's Stance (so pretty much all the time), you have 11d6 sneak attack dice to play with before items

So, on one attack, you can apply Sickening (-1d6), Terrifying (-1d6), Gloom (-2d6), Deafening (-3d6), and one iteration of Maiming strike.  This gives the target a -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, and ability checks and a -2 penalty on damage rolls for 1 round, automatic failure on Listen, -4 Spot, -4 Initiative, 20% chance to fail any verbal component spell, and everyone has concealment relative to them for 3 rounds, 2 strength damage, 1 Ch damage, and a Fort save DC 30+2d6+weapon damage (not including sneak attack) or be stuck with a standard OR move action on the next turn.  Not too bad for a equipment-less punch.

And later attacks in that same round allow you to go Maiming Strike crazy, or keep staggering them until they fail a save.

[snakeman830]

And later attacks in that same round allow you to go Maiming Strike crazy, or keep staggering them until they fail a save.

Yup.  This actually looks like a solid build to me at levels 1-20, although, as normal, it has issues with crit-immune foes at the earlier levels. (later can be fixed with wands of Xstrike or weapon crystals, and Deafening, Gloom, and Maiming Strike all work on undead)

Even nicer is that for that one attack, you can use Emerald Razor to make it a touch attack with no equipment.

[McPoyo]

And later attacks in that same round allow you to go Maiming Strike crazy, or keep staggering them until they fail a save.

Yup.  This actually looks like a solid build to me at levels 1-20, although, as normal, it has issues with crit-immune foes at the earlier levels. (later can be fixed with wands of Xstrike or weapon crystals, and Deafening, Gloom, and Maiming Strike all work on undead)

Even nicer is that for that one attack, you can use Emerald Razor to make it a touch attack with no equipment.

Could just use Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape.

[snakeman830]

And later attacks in that same round allow you to go Maiming Strike crazy, or keep staggering them until they fail a save.

Yup.  This actually looks like a solid build to me at levels 1-20, although, as normal, it has issues with crit-immune foes at the earlier levels. (later can be fixed with wands of Xstrike or weapon crystals, and Deafening, Gloom, and Maiming Strike all work on undead)

Even nicer is that for that one attack, you can use Emerald Razor to make it a touch attack with no equipment.

Could just use Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape.

Good point.  I never remember that one.

Of course, your ambush feats are limited in use, since you're only getting 1/2 the dice on them.

[SorO_Lost]

Real question is why is he wasting so much for so little. A feat slot to pretend he is dead (is that a bluff or disguise skill check) that requires both an intimidate action to use (thus cannot be flat-footed) and a standard action to stop using.

You can buy protection from all death effects & energy drain for 25,000gp that requires no action on your part.

I say again, why is he wasting so much for so little.

It doesn't take up a feat slot, only a Heal check reveals you're dead (and really, who puts ranks in Heal when they could just buy a CLW wand), and it provides immunity to quite a bit more than death effects and energy drain pretty much everything, stuff that prevents your actions (see the feat eating them instead), energy drain (see cheapo item), and mind affecting attacks (see elder evil's reflection for free).

Fixed

Fixed.

P.S. Evasion - offered up for 20,000gp but who is going to buy that instead of their Soulfire Bracers? - also has the this little effect of preventing damage, something the ACF doesn't do. You literally trade next turn, standard to end move to stand and swift burnt for immediate, to ignore one necromancy or enchantment effect. Both of those schools almost always offer a save to negate and items out scale save DCs barring the most hardy optimization.
 


 

[snakeman830]

Real question is why is he wasting so much for so little. A feat slot to pretend he is dead (is that a bluff or disguise skill check) that requires both an intimidate action to use (thus cannot be flat-footed) and a standard action to stop using.

You can buy protection from all death effects & energy drain for 25,000gp that requires no action on your part.

I say again, why is he wasting so much for so little.

It doesn't take up a feat slot, only a Heal check reveals you're dead (and really, who puts ranks in Heal when they could just buy a CLW wand), and it provides immunity to quite a bit more than death effects and energy drain pretty much everything, stuff that prevents your actions (see the feat eating them instead), energy drain (see cheapo item), and mind affecting attacks (see elder evil's reflection for free).

Fixed

Fixed.

P.S. Evasion - offered up for 20,000gp but who is going to buy that instead of their Soulfire Bracers? - also has the this little effect of preventing damage, something the ACF doesn't do. You literally trade next turn, standard to end move to stand and swift burnt for immediate, to ignore one necromancy or enchantment effect. Both of those schools almost always offer a save to negate and items out scale save DCs barring the most hardy optimization.
 


 

Feigning Death has a lot more applications than simple immunities, though.  It's excellent for surprising foes in multiple situations and, if you are actually taking a pounding, you can "die" until the fight is over.  Your party members would rather be down a man temporarily than permanantly, I'm pretty sure.

[McPoyo]

Real question is why is he wasting so much for so little. A feat slot to pretend he is dead (is that a bluff or disguise skill check) that requires both an intimidate action to use (thus cannot be flat-footed) and a standard action to stop using.

You can buy protection from all death effects & energy drain for 25,000gp that requires no action on your part.

I say again, why is he wasting so much for so little.

It doesn't take up a feat slot, only a Heal check reveals you're dead (and really, who puts ranks in Heal when they could just buy a CLW wand), and it provides immunity to quite a bit more than death effects and energy drain pretty much everything, stuff that prevents your actions (see the feat eating them instead), energy drain (see cheapo item), and mind affecting attacks (see elder evil's reflection for free).

Fixed

Fixed.

P.S. Evasion - offered up for 20,000gp but who is going to buy that instead of their Soulfire Bracers? - also has the this little effect of preventing damage, something the ACF doesn't do. You literally trade next turn, standard to end move to stand and swift burnt for immediate, to ignore one necromancy or enchantment effect. Both of those schools almost always offer a save to negate and items out scale save DCs barring the most hardy optimization.
 


 

Feigning Death has a lot more applications than simple immunities, though.  It's excellent for surprising foes in multiple situations and, if you are actually taking a pounding, you can "die" until the fight is over.  Your party members would rather be down a man temporarily than permanantly, I'm pretty sure.

Especially if they TPK and you have resurrection gear on you for UMD.

Edit: Jesus was a rogue with nonlethal immunity, clearly. He bluffed everyone into thinking he was taking nonlethal, and then tripped off Feign Death at the appropriate moment, they buried him, then he epic DC escape artisted through the crack between boulder and tomb and walked out...

[SorO_Lost]

Real question is why is he wasting so much for so little. A feat slot to pretend he is dead (is that a bluff or disguise skill check) that requires both an intimidate action to use (thus cannot be flat-footed) and a standard action to stop using.

You can buy protection from all death effects & energy drain for 25,000gp that requires no action on your part.

I say again, why is he wasting so much for so little.

It doesn't take up a feat slot, only a Heal check reveals you're dead (and really, who puts ranks in Heal when they could just buy a CLW wand), and it provides immunity to quite a bit more than death effects and energy drain pretty much everything, stuff that prevents your actions (see the feat eating them instead), energy drain (see cheapo item), and mind affecting attacks (see elder evil's reflection for free).

Fixed

Fixed.

P.S. Evasion - offered up for 20,000gp but who is going to buy that instead of their Soulfire Bracers? - also has the this little effect of preventing damage, something the ACF doesn't do. You literally trade next turn, standard to end move to stand and swift burnt for immediate, to ignore one necromancy or enchantment effect. Both of those schools almost always offer a save to negate and items out scale save DCs barring the most hardy optimization.
 

Feigning Death has a lot more applications than simple immunities, though.  It's excellent for surprising foes in multiple situations and, if you are actually taking a pounding, you can "die" until the fight is over.  Your party members would rather be down a man temporarily than permanantly, I'm pretty sure.

Ahh now you're talking the application of pretending you are dead.

1. Myself: A feat slot to pretend he is dead (is that a bluff or disguise skill check)
Picture this, you are in the middle of combat and you cast Just-Die-Already, the subject drops to the ground and stops moving. *Spot Check* His chest isn't moving therefor not breathing. Do you...
A. Stop to check his pulse.
B. Slice his head off, way to many dead creatures tend to find ways to continually annoy you.
C. Turn your attention to TPKing the other 3 people that are currently attacking you.
What happened? The rogue pretended to be dead and dropped prone (free action) and held his breath (also a free action). DM ruled Disguise since it was visual rather than verbal (bluff) and imposed a -4 penalty to be a dick. The player pointed out it is Minor Details (+5) then the player further points out the spotter is distracted (-5) by currently being in combat and taking spells to the face. Even with the unreasonable penalty there is still a 6 point difference before factoring the rogue's charisma vs monsters wisdom (no contest), skill ranks, and rolls. This can be done for free and you can even pick up an item to stand as a swift action (MiC) for an almost zero loss of turn.

2. Rogue uses Feigning Death and tries to *surprise* his killers at the end.
Player 1: Dude, wtf? Why didn't you get up and help us kill him?
DM: You know, you got your ass kicked while fighting along side three other people, soloing isn't going to help.
Player 2: I know. McWhimpy loots the bodys and runs away.
Hope it's a good group with a good sense of humor. Wouldn't not adventuring and becoming an investment broker be a better answer given the monetary risks without betting your life outside of special mafia cases?

3. Rogue uses Feigning Death and recovers immediately.
Already pointed it out, total loss of an entire turn as backup for failing your save isn't as good as sporting full immunity. Well, EE's Insane Defiance is better than out right immunity given it's reflective properties to try and screw over the guy using the effect on you. Of course, an even better option to Soul Fire is going Necropolition animated by Dread Necromancer in a Desecrated area since it's an effective 26 con and immunities without any cost.


The one thing Feigning Death has going for it is the level 2 access and option to retrain it out. Other than that it is a subpar option that falls into the area of triple redundancy. And that is all I have to say, keep your ideas of requiring an ACF to pretend you are dead, it's not worth arguing.

[Senevri]

...You need a FEAT in order to pretend to die? Sounds like another Short Haft feat - IE, pointless functionality which should be included into basic actions in the first place.

[Dictum Mortuum]

It's not a feat. It's a class feature.

While under the effect of this ability, you are immune
to all mind-affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep,
paralysis, stunning, disease, ability drain, negative levels,
and death effects.

These are the immunities the ACF grants you.

First of all, SorO_Lost, you are comparing a low level ACF with the soulfire enchantment, which is +4. Seriously, you can't argue that feign death is bad because there is a great magic item somewhere, affordable by 11th level which costs you more than 1/3rd of your WBL at that point. You need to compare it to the class feature it replaces.

Feign death is affordable, easy to use from the low levels, provides protection versus a wider array of effects (OK, it doesn't protect you from damage like soulfire, but, come on). I find that it is better than evasion. And even if you like evasion, there are multiple ways of getting it back, it's not like it's a rare class feature. Even without dipping, you can select improved evasion as a special ability.

Feign death actually saves you actions, considering that dead people generally stay put. Paralyzed, stunned and people that have fallen asleep aren't taking many actions, either (especially when their will and fortitude saves are lacking).

[Bozwevial]

Agreed. While in the short term you'll lose a round worth of actions to avoid the paralyze/stun/whatever, the next round you're free to act as normal, while someone who still has the effect on them continues to lose actions.

[Nachofan99]

It looks like this thread has Feigned Death.

Whyforno rogue handbook?

[SorO_Lost]

idk. cus rogues are too broad?

[X-Codes]

idk. cus rogues are too broad?

I think it's the opposite.  They have no defining characteristics.

[Lycanthromancer]

I love the first level changeling racial ACF from Races of Eberron. You gain 10 skill points (40 + 4x Int at 1st level) and gain Skill Mastery with a bunch of social skills.

Who wouldn't want that on a factotum character taking the face role?

[SorO_Lost]

I love the first level changeling racial ACF from Races of Eberron. You gain 10 skill points (40 + 4x Int at 1st level) and gain Skill Mastery with a bunch of social skills.

Who wouldn't want that on a factotum character taking the face role?

Page #?

[Lycanthromancer]

I love the first level changeling racial ACF from Races of Eberron. You gain 10 skill points (40 + 4x Int at 1st level) and gain Skill Mastery with a bunch of social skills.

Who wouldn't want that on a factotum character taking the face role?

Page #?

p122.

And that's only part of what it does.

[SorO_Lost]

Tell me again why we don't see many changeling based builds?

[X-Codes]

Tell me again why we don't see many changeling based builds?

Because Humans get a bonus feat.

That sub-level almost makes up for it, though.  Assuming you're incorporating some Rogue levels into your build.