On Bonus Feats and Prerequisites

[BeholderSlayer]

Context.

This seems to be the crux of your argument.

The problem is that it is relative and not something you can settle a RAW debate on.

As for the rules stating that the spell description is how the specific spell works:

This whole page.

Context and common sense, really. Bonus feats are still feats, and there is no reason they should not follow the rules for feats. To any speaker of the English language this should be obvious. If they had just been called "Bonuses" instead of "Bonus Feats" it would be different. The word "bonus" is an adjective that describes the word "feats," but does not change the meaning of the word "feats."

The belief that the rogue's option to select a bonus feat allows for any feat ignores the rules of the English language, and also ignores the construction process of the feats section of the book.

Context is never relative, especially when dealing with the context of written words, since the words and construction are static and objective. The fact that many people choose to ignore the context does not make context subjective.

[EjoThims]

The belief that the rogue's option to select a bonus feat allows for any feat ignores the rules of the English language

Not at all. Special categories can easily have special rules, and we have rules that support that claim.

words... are static and objective.

 

[BeholderSlayer]

The belief that the rogue's option to select a bonus feat allows for any feat ignores the rules of the English language

Not at all. Special categories can easily have special rules, and we have rules that support that claim.

words... are static and objective.

 

But feats are not stated to have special rules for special categories, and thus do not. The word "bonus" does not change the meaning of "feats."

It's pretty clear you missed my meaning. The words do not change, they are what they are and are irrefutably the exact words that are written.

Edit/Add:
Look at it from a pure logic standpoint. The rogue entry states that a rogue "may select a bonus feat in place of a special ability." Note, the entry does not say "any feat," nor does it say that the rogue need not meet the requirements for the feat. The word "bonus" describes the word "feat," but does not explicitly change the feat such that it no longer needs to follow the rules for feats. The absence of a statement that the rogue must meet the prerequisites to take the feat (a la Fighter entry) is irrelevant, as the word "Bonus" does not change the category of the word "feat" in any meaningful way, pertinent to this subject, anyway. There is no statement anywhere that by being a bonus feat a feat enters a new category where prerequisites no longer apply.

Whoever came up with this nonsense first did so by disregarding logic, the rules of the English language, and through selective reading.

[EjoThims]

But feats are not stated to have special rules for special categories

If special rules are introduced for a special category of them, then it is evident that they do.

And the MM introduces special rules for the 'bonus' special category of feats.

Not for the 'racial bonus' special category, since that does not exist in the rules.

[snakeman830]

Not for the 'racial bonus' special category, since that does not exist in the rules.

Actually, yes it does.  It is specified as "Racial Feats" and then specifies what feat is gained as a bonus feat.  Thus, the Bonus Feat falls under the Racial descriptor and you get "Racial Bonus Feat"

Feat is the noun.  Bonus is the adjective describing the noun.  Racial is another adjective describing the first, and subsequently the noun.

Welcome to English.  Please learn it.

[BeholderSlayer]

Furthermore, if racial bonus feats didn't exist, then spells like Alter Self, Polymorph, etc. would never grant any feats at all, because they specifically state "racial bonus feats" are granted, not just "bonus feats."

[JaronK]

And the MM introduces special rules for the 'bonus' special category of feats.

When creating new creatures, yes.  But only then (and when reading creature entries).  That's why it's in those sections.  Notice the prerequisites section is in feats.  That means it applies to feats.

Remember, you still haven't been able to show why I don't always get a +30 to bluff checks other than "because it's in the glibness section."  I mean, you made up some rule about how spell descriptions only apply when the spell is active, but that rule doesn't exist.  The only thing that does exist is the context... which is enough for everyone to understand.  Except, it seems, you, and a small number of other people.

Not for the 'racial bonus' special category, since that does not exist in the rules.

So when Alter Self refers to racial bonus feats, it's not talking about a category of feats?  Interesting.  Or is it that Alter Self doesn't have rules?  Which one is it? 

JaronK

[awaken DM golem]

You run to RAI (and create a new thread trying to drum up sympathy) when it's pointed out that your perfect definition of true dragons which also includes kobolds ALSO includes a chihuahua.

That's a strawman and you know it.

BTW, a chair qualifies for beholder mage as well. 

Just cast animate objects + PAO into a beholder + PAO into a beholder with different eyecolors.

Don't even need the animate objects.


Now, the way I'd phrase that would be "anyone with PAO can become a beholder and qualify that way"
Your argument (that taking the feat would transform you into a kobold) would be better stated as "anybody with the feat is inherently a true dragon because having the feat makes you a kobold".

Which, well, doesn't really help your argument at all.  "HEY GUYS HE CAN BE A TRUE DRAGON IF HE TURNS HIMSELF INTO A KOBOLD". 

... is a Beholder that doesn't move even in the wind, and doesn't want to be farted on. Will use Disintegrate to stop farts, and Anti-magic cone.

[Black Knight]

The specific rule concerning feats from the PHB:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

If you gain a feat from anywhere, it must follow this rule... unless there is a written rule specifically exempting the granted feat from its prerequisites.

So for those not agreeing with JaronK (and incidently myself and others), please quote the relevant rule that says that a Rogue's bonus feats don't have to follow this.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The specific rule concerning feats from the PHB:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

If you gain a feat from anywhere, it must follow this rule... unless there is a written rule specifically exempting the granted feat from its prerequisites.

So for those not agreeing with JaronK (and incidently myself and others), please quote the relevant rule that says that a Rogue's bonus feats doesn't have to follow this.

The quote used is from the MM

Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B.  Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat.  If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.

[Black Knight]

Actually, the complete quote would be:

Feats

If
you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign
its other feats, but not its bonus feats.

The bolded section of text clearly indicates that these bonus feats are racial feats that all members of that race possess.. AND may not be changed, by RAW, even by the DM.  Which of course, is just silly.

EDIT:  Well, I suppose if the Rogue bonus feat was marked with a superscript B, I'd have to agree that prerequisites don't apply.  I'm certain that that is not the case.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Actually, it never actually says you can still "select" the feat, just that you can still use it. 

[Black Knight]

Actually, it never actually says you can still "select" the feat, just that you can still use it.  

True.  Since these are bonus racial feats that even the DM cannot change, but the creature has anyway... no selection was necessary.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

What I'm saying is that passage wouldn't work for rogue bonus feats even if it worked.

Not that that prevents me from houseruling "bonus feats may waive prereqs if awesome enough" in.