Cloistered Cleric for The Shackled City

[ImmortalSoul]

Hi everyone!

We are going to play "The Shackled City" and currently create a group for it. We are 4 players, though I believe that the number of people actually attending the gaming sessions is rather going to be three. Starting level is 1, of course.

Right now we have:
Human Paladin (probably doesn't optimize at all)
Dwarf Fighter (same for him)
Halfling Rogue (is likely going to optimize)

Well, and me. I expect that most of the sessions only either the paladin or the fighter will be present, so there's one tank-guy, one skillmonkey/trapfinder/glasscanon and a whole lot of interesting roles yet to cover somehow.

I figured I'd go with a Cloistered Cleric - first of all, I never played a cleric (or a divine caster of any sort, actually) before, moreover, I expect the buffing/healing will come in handy. I'll try and pick a lot of knowledge-skills and play a scholar, because I guess I just like the concept of possessing a whole bunch of knowledge-skills and obscure languages.
Anyway, as I don't have any experience with clerics at all, I am not sure where to go from there if I manage to survive the first few levels. I read the cleric handbook and considered Divine Oracle as well as Contemplative, and I found a lot of threads concerning cleric builds of some sorts.
But they all seem so assume that I start at level 7 or later, am allowed to pick up any domain I like and already possess DMM and Extra Turning/Nightsticks when the game starts.

Now nothing of that is actually the case. I already chose (and may not change anymore) my race (Lesser Aasimar), my god (Amaunator, whom I'll be allowed to serve even though he is considered a dead deity - his Domains: Law, Nobility, Sun, Planning, Time), the class (cloistered cleric) and the general concept of the character (scholar, not going to be a frontliner, rather running around buffing, healing and throwing powerful divine magic at everything that looks vaguely like an enemy). Most of the books are allowed (no Eberron, though). No flaws, pb32. Setting is Forgotten Realms. Stats, Domains, Feats and the like may still be changed.

Right now I'm thinking about this:

LG Lesser Aasimar CC of Amaunator 1
Stats after racial adjustments:
Str 8
Dex 12
Int 14
Con 14
Wis 18
Cha 16
Feats: Improved Initiative (Time Domain), Extend Spell (Planning Domain), Knowledge Devotion (Feat 1).

And now, there is a number of questions I still have:
1) I want to grab DMM, even though Nightsticks won't stack. Would you, considering the generally rather low powerlevel of the group, rather get persitent or quicken spell?
2) While we have enough melee in my opinion, the group clearly lacks the spellcasting. Again considering the group-setup, how would you proceed class-wise? Which PrCs would you take, and why? Try to not utterly smash the other players' fun and my DM's patience, please
3) Should I try to acquire arcane spellcasting, too, or do I spread myself too thin, then? We are using an alternative Sorcerer variant that gets spells as fast as a wizard and may apply metamagic feats without an increase in casting time. Maybe that's an option with the rather high cha?
4) How do I make whatever concept I choose viable at lower levels - that is, before DMM actually pays off and I get some offensive spells?

Additionally, I'd really appreciate any advice you may have on how to play this character effectively, especially at lower levels. I really fear that I won't actually be able to contribute a lot in battles early on.

Thanks in advance,
ImmortalSoul

[McPoyo]

Seeing as how you are trying not to smash, I would recommend leaning towards party buffing. Makes the other guys stronger without putting the limelight on yourself. If no one has posted suggestions on this by the time I get to work later (on my phone, atm), I'll throw some stuff up.

[MorgenTao]

I've played a cleric in The Shackled City and I can definitely say that Church Inquisitor will work well for you, at least up to pierce illusion. Also, Divine Oracle is nice for Evasion. For a mostly not optimized group, Shackled City will not be easy. I'd recommend you make your Cleric as effective as possible and you try to rely on the Rogue's Use Magic Device for some of the Arcane Spells (e.g. Fly). Buffing, Debuffing, Healing is a good role for you in that campaign. As a cloistered cleric, make sure to play your cleric in a careful and cautious way. You can really shine with Summon Monster spells if you need some arcane offensive power in certain situations.

You may want to pick up the Skill Trick Collector of Stories (Complete Adventurer) to further boost your combat knowledge against certain creatures

There will be dead PCs, unless you all play extremely well as a team and are sort of lucky, so you may have a Wizard companion before long  

Have fun!

[ImmortalSoul]

Thanks for you input
I can see why Church Inquisitor is good, kinda missed that PrC before. Would you be so kind as to give me an idea on how to progress this character class-wise until, say, level 7?

Moreover, some of the question have not been answered yet, so I'd really appreciate anything you have concerning strategies and the like!

[Solo]

Your next two feats should be Persist Spell and Divine Metamagic.

[Black Knight]

Cloistered Clerics get the Knowledge domain in addition to 2 others allowed by their diety.

Knowledge devotion requires 5 ranks in a knowledge skill... which means you can't take it at 1st level.

Answers to your questions:
1.  Persistent

2.  With the homebrew sorcerer ruling, I'd play something like a Cloistered Cleric 3/ Sorcerer 3/ Mystic Theurge 10/ xx 4. 
Mystic Theurge advances both divine and arcane spellcasting levels.  The downside is that you'll be feat starved. 

3.  It really depends on the DM.  A creative one can 'handle' not having the traditional roles covered in an adventuring group.  In my group, I try to fill in any gaps that are needed (and thus typically make my character last of everyone). 

4.  You can have DMM by 3rd level, but with your CHA score you probably won't be able to use it until 6th. 

Here's a possible build for you using the above suggestions:
1:  Cloistered Cleric (Time(Improved Init), Planning(Extend), Knowledge), Persistent
2:  Cloistered Cleric
3:  Cloistered Cleric  DMM(Persistent), Convert Knowledge domain to devotion (don't forget your bonus KS skill)
4:  Sorcerer
5:  Sorcerer
6:  Sorcerer:  Extra Turning (DMM needs 7 turn attempts per spell that gets persisted)
7:  Mystic Theurge  (since you get spells as fast as wizard, you can qualify for this PrC now)
8:  Mystic Theurge
9:  Mystic Theurge:  Sculpt
10:  Mystic Theurge
11:  Mystic Theurge
12:  Mystic Theurge:  Arcane Thesis (Wings of Flurry)
13:  Mystic Theurge
14:  Mystic Theurge
15:  Mystic Theurge:  Practiced Spellcaster
16:  Mystic Theurge
17:  xx
18:  xx:  [Open Feat]
19:  xx
20:  xx

If you want more Persisted goodies, then take more Extra Turning feats, and less arcane ones.
You could also take Heighten and Fiery Burst to always have some blasting power.

An alternative to this build would be to take Cloister Cleric 5/ Crusader 1/ RVK 10 / xx 4

Cheers.

[ImmortalSoul]

Once again, thank you very much!
This looks like I might really enjoy playing it - I've always liked not being a one-trick-pony. Just to clear things up for me: I won't be able to DMM(Persist) my Sorcerer spells, will I?

3.  It really depends on the DM.  A creative one can 'handle' not having the traditional roles covered in an adventuring group.  In my group, I try to fill in any gaps that are needed (and thus typically make my character last of everyone). 

I've always felt my DM was good at adapting challenges to the players, but we don't want to change the adventure too drastically so I'm fine with "filling in the gaps".

[Nachofan99]

Shackled City, if run correctly, will kill your characters.  A few times.  With the group you have, you are going to die a lot.

See if you can get the Paladin to go Crusader, and the Fighter to go Warblade.  It will improve your overall group's performance by over 9000.

As for your cleric, there's no wrong way to do it if you're going to use persisted spells.  I don't really know the optimization level of your group so it's harder to suggest a build that will be acceptable for your table.

[Black Knight]

Once again, thank you very much!
This looks like I might really enjoy playing it - I've always liked not being a one-trick-pony. Just to clear things up for me: I won't be able to DMM(Persist) my Sorcerer spells, will I?

That would be really awesome, if you could.  Maybe your DM would let you, but by RAW it's divine spells only.

[MorgenTao]

You can replace the Knowledge Domain Powers or the Inquisition Domain Powers (I'd recommend the Inquisition Domain which you'd get from Church Inquisitor) with Knowledge Devotion. Then, you won't have to fulfill any prerequisites.

(Inq. Domain also trades to Knowledge Devotion, according to the Complete Champion list - then, you will have all Knowledge Skills, a ton of skill points, and Knowledge Devotion (concentrate on Nature, Religion, The Planes, Arcana and Dungeoneering for maximum effect of Knowledge Devotion). If you won't take Church Inquisitor, take Knowledge Devotion and pick Knowledge Nature - a nice bonus against humanoids and animals is always great.
Afaik, you have to trade or keep Domain powers as soon as you get them.

I'd also recommend Solo's input. After that, extra turning will be great for you  

Black Knight's build is a good one, but I'm not sure about a Mystic Theurge in Shackled City, you may be too far behind in Spell Levels.

I'd probably go Cloistered Cleric 3 / Church Inquisitor X / Divine Oracle (at least 2) / Cloistered Cleric (up to lvl 9) / Contemplative at least 1 for another Domain. I cannot look it up atm  :/

Feats will be Persist, Dmm:Persist, Extra Turning (probably multiple times). Take a reach weapon for additional safety if you want to have some impact in fights. You don't have shield proficiency as a Cloistered Cleric, so, pick up a Longspear and a Crossbow.

[ImmortalSoul]

You can replace the Knowledge Domain Powers or the Inquisition Domain Powers (I'd recommend the Inquisition Domain which you'd get from Church Inquisitor) with Knowledge Devotion. Then, you won't have to fulfill any prerequisites.

(Inq. Domain also trades to Knowledge Devotion, according to the Complete Champion list - then, you will have all Knowledge Skills, a ton of skill points, and Knowledge Devotion (concentrate on Nature, Religion, The Planes, Arcana and Dungeoneering for maximum effect of Knowledge Devotion). If you won't take Church Inquisitor, take Knowledge Devotion and pick Knowledge Nature - a nice bonus against humanoids and animals is always great.
Afaik, you have to trade or keep Domain powers as soon as you get them.

But that would mean I couldn't get knowledge devotion at all if I didn't go Church Inquisitor. I don't have the CC with me right now, but I'll have to look that up.

See if you can get the Paladin to go Crusader, and the Fighter to go Warblade.  It will improve your overall group's performance by over 9000.

I'd love to do that, but that's likely not going to happen, they feel that ToB is way too complicated anyway. Maybe I can get the fighter to go Deepwarden, but nothing ToB'ish.

Concerning the difficulty of the adventure:
I really think my DM will be able to make the adventure at least easy enough to not ruin our fun completely. Sure, someone is likely going to die once in a while, but that's what I ask for here: Help me build a character that, if played correctly, survives and helps people survive.

And concerning the Mystic Theurge:
I lack the experience to know if that build is good before, say, level 10, or if the lost casterlevels cripple it until at least the midgame. Of course, a straight divine caster as MorgenTao suggested likely loses less strenght early on. Any additional thoughts on that?

[Nachofan99]

I've played in Shackled City a few times and gotten to mid-levels (8-10).

Mystic Theurge sucked terrible ball sack.  Getting no class abilities sucks and you will find yourself wishing you were a straight single classed caster all the time.  That is what I saw at the table in actual gameplay when we had a Mystic Theurge playing.  Terrible HP/saves and no spell oomph when you really need it.

[ImmortalSoul]

After scanning over the spell choices and the like I fear you might be right. It'll be awesome if I survive until the midgame, but probably rather annoying before, all with getting the useful spells so very late.

Okay, going with what MorgenTao suggested:

Cloistered Cleric 1 - Imp. Init. (Time), Extend (Planning), Persist (Feat)
Cloistered Cleric 2
Cloistered Cleric 3 - DMM(Persist)
Church Inquisitor 1 - Inquisition Domain (give up for Knowledge Devotion)
Church Inquisitor 2
Church Inquisitor 3 - Extra Turning

Right now I'm facing a problem though: I need skill focus[knowledge(religion)] for Divine Oracle, but don't want to delay Extra Turning any further as I need it direly for DMM. What could I fit in here? More levels of Church Inquisitor don't look so strong to me. Neither do 3 more levels of Cloistered Cleric, though. Technically, I could go Divine Oracle at level 10 (after I got the skill focus at 9) and 11 and move on into Contemplative then. Still, there has to be something more effective than that.
Any thoughts?

[MorgenTao]

You can get a Nightstick first, take Skill Focus Know. Religion, and take Extra Turning later. It will net you only one persisted spell anyways at that level. Ok, maybe two if you have a Cloak of Charisma You could also skip Divine Oracle, but Evasion is sort of useful in my eyes, it adds safety to your somewhat feeble existance as a Cloistered Cleric.

And now I know why it all seemed to fit so perfectly for my characters - I always took Human as my race

You're right, you could always take Div Oracle later, some Skill Points of your Cl. Cleric put into your Knowledges are really a good thing if you have Knowledge Devotion. So there may be better choices, but you can always take some extra Cl. Cleric levels, it will certainly not be a bad decision.

[PhaedrusXY]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I'd say:

1) Run away from any ideas of Mystic Theurge as fast as possible. Your DMs house rules make the sorcerer decent, but the MT still sucks donkey balls.
2) How about a "Wannabe Wizard"? You can pretty easily enter Shadowcraft Mage with a cloistered cleric, and with the Divine Magician ACF you can add quite a few wiz/sorc spells to your spell list. In the end, you can wind up as a very versatile caster able to cover both the divine and arcane roles in your party without sacrificing any spellcasting levels at all. Example builds with varying levels of cheese can be found here and here .

[Hallack]

I second Shadowcraft mage consideration if your DM will allow you to play it without being a gnome.  I'm playing a Cloistered Cleric/SCM right now and it is great.

Divne Magician is a nice ACF and there is also the Spontaneous Domain from PHBII I think that would allow you to cast your Silent Images spontaneiously.   That would mean a Domain change for Silent Image though

Church Inquisitor is also a very good option for filler levels and you can do it and SCM if you go high enough level.

[PhaedrusXY]

Gnomes aren't so bad...

[ImmortalSoul]

Gnomes are fine, but I chose to play a Lesser Aasimar and won't be able to change that now. Moreover, I don't think the Shadowcraft Mage fits my character fluffwise at all (lawful good CC who is all about learning and justice and the like... no, doesn't seem such a good idea).

Divine Magician looks cool though. I found your thread on it a while ago, but just sort of scanned it - gonna give it a more detailed look tomorrow. Would you recommend taking it over Knowledge Domain? If I go Church Inquisitor, I won't need that any more if I'm not missing something. I don't have the book at hand (where is Divine Magician, tome of magic?), so I'm not certain on whether I understood correctly how it works.

[PhaedrusXY]

Gnomes are fine, but I chose to play a Lesser Aasimar and won't be able to change that now. Moreover, I don't think the Shadowcraft Mage fits my character fluffwise at all (lawful good CC who is all about learning and justice and the like... no, doesn't seem such a good idea).

Divine Magician looks cool though. I found your thread on it a while ago, but just sort of scanned it - gonna give it a more detailed look tomorrow. Would you recommend taking it over Knowledge Domain? If I go Church Inquisitor, I won't need that any more if I'm not missing something. I don't have the book at hand (where is Divine Magician, tome of magic?), so I'm not certain on whether I understood correctly how it works.

Yeah, if you've already started I could see how retooling to enter SCM might not work...

Mister Sinister just made a new Divine Magician Handbook (in the handbooks section). It is probably better than the half-assed thing I made. The ACF is from Complete Mage, IIRC. I think I replaced the Knowledge domain with that on my Wannabe Wizard character in the 2nd link above.

[ImmortalSoul]

Not started, but written a looong background story (which I rather enjoyed so I feel I should stick to it ). Okay, new question:
Yes, I could delay Extra Turning and get a Nightstick (should be possible, even though my DM is rather sceptical about them, but just one ought to be fine). Or I get both and enter Divine Oracle 3 levels later, which delays Evasion though.

As I expect the adventure to be full of deadly traps after what I read here, the first options looks better. Or is there any class to fill in this 3 levels that really shines as a dip for me?