Author Topic: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way? (Now maybe an Arcane Hierophant build)  (Read 1892 times)

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merkin

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Hello all!

Here's the deal- my old gaming group is 'getting the gang back together.'  I am going to be running the good old fashioned treantmonk style god wizard, one guy has an utterly sick bear warrior barb, another is building a beguiler/mindbender/beguiler/shadowcraft mage, and that leaves the healer.  Unfortunately, the guy who is stuck playing the healer is the guy who always seems to get stuck playing the healer, and he has asked for my help in coming up with something fun and interesting.  He mentioned that he is interested in playing an illumian of some sort, which I wasn't very familiar with, so I started doing some googling, and I have come up with this:

Illumian

Bard 1
Rogue 1
Warmage 1
Favored Soul 1
As few mystic theurge levels as is possible to achieve the lyrist prereqs
Fochluchan Lyrist 10
Topped off with mystic theurge levels

I think he would have a lot of fun with the massive versatility of this build (party face, minor buffer, glass cannon, and healbot all rolled in to one, with the only downside being no ninth level spells at level twenty).  We will be starting somewhere in the neighborhood of level ten.

With the Illumian, theurge is a piece of cake to get in to at level five, but what is the fastest way to get in to lyrist?  The extra hit points would be a significant bonus.  Am I overlooking a better way?  Our DM is pretty stingy with the magic items and relatively stingy with the loot, so I am trying to avoid being dependent on magic items for prereqs.  On the plus side, he lets us get away with nonsense like these builds.

Also, if you have any general questions or comments about this idea, i would love to hear them- I've never encountered anything on this particular amalgamation of classes before, only a couple of general lyrist threads.

Thanks everyone!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 07:25:20 AM by merkin »

Littha

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Re: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 01:33:53 AM »
Lyrist is a bad class despite how it looks, your build is wrong though.

Need 2 Rogue levels for Evasion
13 ranks of preform is a pain too
Need to speak druidic (you could be taught by a blighter or somehow convince a druid to give up all his class features I suppose)
Favored Soul and Warmage are not good classes for this build, I would suggest druid and wizard if you can.


I would suggest reading this:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds

Fastest (honest) way into lyrist is
Rogue 2/Druid 1/Bard 7
Best way into lyrist is probably something along the lines of
Bard 6/Druid 1/Rogue 2/Ur Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Lyrist 9
though you may want to work out the logistics of that, it is off the top of my head.

Sohala

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Re: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 01:36:59 AM »
Bard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Sublime Chord 1/Fachlucan Lyrist 9?
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Littha

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Re: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 01:44:50 AM »
Bard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Sublime Chord 1/Fachlucan Lyrist 9?
13 ranks of preform...

Sohala

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Re: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 01:52:51 AM »
Forgot he wanted Illumian, I was thinking human for some reason, sorry.
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merkin

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Re: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 01:53:15 AM »
littha-

well drat.  I guess he will just be stuck with a d4 hit die with the exception of the one level of favored soul then, since it is looking like ten levels of theurge are in the works.

here is my reasoning behind the warmage/favored soul combination:

the beguiler is basically a rogue with battlefield control spells.

my wizard has all of the buffing/debuffing/polymorph cheese/wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff covered.

hence, we don't need another wiz/sorc.

we do, however, need a 'cleric,' and my buddy specified that a) he is kind of bored with clerics and b) he wants to play an illumian.  I did a bit of digging, and i found that the thing the illumian was best at is getting in to mystic theurge super quickly.  I mentioned this to my friend, and he thought it sounded like a lot of fun, particularly with starting off with a level in bard so he would have a broad skillset and be able to pull off an additional role as the party 'face.'  In this campaign, he is more interested in doing something fun and having a good time than having the ultimate optimized character, but seeing as how all of the rest of us are building super-optimized characters, I am trying to help him find a build that will allow him to hang, feel useful, and still have fun doing something different.

I am looking at warmage/favored soul for a couple of reasons.  The obvious is the fact that they both are CHA based.  Beyond that, i know he would really enjoy the 'burninating the countryside' aspect of warmage (also, I will be ditching necro, evoc, and ench, so having what amounts to an evocation specialist rounds things out), and he won't mind doing 'clerical work' as long as he has other fun stuff to do.

I was hoping that I could work lyrist in for a couple of reasons-  like I mentioned, the extra hit points will be nice.  Also, mystic theurge and lyrist are the only classes I know that allow simultaneous advancement of a divine and an arcane class, so I am at a loss for some sort of solid advancement plan beyond the tenth level of theurge.

raith0

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Re: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2010, 04:18:24 AM »
what ECL are you starting at ?  if you are starting at 1 then maybe a theurge based on archivist/wizard still has dual stats needed for casting but gets you a ton flexability.  you can always go rainbow warsnake if starting at a higher level netting him the warmage list and the cleric list spontanously. 

but maybe something like this: wizard 1/ Archivist 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ contemplative 1/ sacred exorcist 1/ xxxdivine casting prc 5

will net you 6th level arcane as a wizard 9th divine ( includes the rest of the wizard spells ) from archivist 1 domain your choice and DMM

will have some buff ability from archivist and spells healing as a cleric ( plus vigor line ) shapeshift and enough buffs to melee when needed/wanted
only feat required is improved sigil Krau for free heightening of 2 spells to get into theurge early. 

if you are set on the lyrist type without improved sigil krau you need at least 2 levels of bard.  evasion can be gotten from a magic item by ecl 10. 

maybe something like this Bard 2/ Druid 4/ Arcane Hierphant 4/ sublime cord 1/ folchun lyrist 9

still will need improved sigil krau but you still get wildshape as an 8th level druid and close to dual 9s


ron

wotmaniac

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Re: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2010, 04:51:17 AM »
screw MT -- all it advances is spellcasting.

rogue 2/bard 2/druid 1/green whisperer 5/SC 1/FL 9
 -- or -- (with a ring of evasion)
bard 2/druid 3/GW 5/SC 1/FL 9  = double-9 casting

if going past 20, then either AH of MT.


(and yes, this is yet another plug for GW  :D)

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merkin

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Re: Illumian Lyrist- is there a better way?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2010, 06:11:03 AM »
So i decided to go back to the drawing board and really dig in to some minmaxing research, and I think i might have come up with something rather clever.  I wrote it all up in an email to a friend of mine, which, to save typing time, i am just going to copypasta here:

"So I've been doing some research in to the illumian mystic theurge, and I think I have come up with something even better than what i described to you over the phone and emailed you about.  Here it goes-

Race- Star Elf (Forgotten Realms: Unapproachable East)- I know it isn't illumian, but it is better than illumian for a very similar but stronger type of character.

You will need the highest charisma score you can possibly get- starting with an 18 is best.  INT should be your second highest score, with WIS not far behind. The rest of your scores should be relatively balanced.  If anything is a dump stat, it is probably Dex, or Str, if you end up taking weapon finesse at some point.  The minimum INT you can have to pull off the skills you need is a 14.  Hopefully Stretch will let us point buy instead of roll for our stats this time.

You will certainly get other feats beyond the ones I mention, but the ones I specifically mention are required for the build.

First Level- Ranger.  It gives a good number of starting hit points, enough skill points to pull off the schtick, and a starting base attack bonus of +1. Take Endurance as your feat.  You have 32 skill points.  Put four in to hide, four in to move silently, four in to knowledge nature, four in to survival, eight in to knowledge arcana, and eight in to knowledge religion.  Arcana and Religion are cross-class.

Second level- Favored Soul (complete divine).  This class is basically a cleric that casts spells off of charisma instead of wisdom. You have four skill points.  Put one in to knowledge arcana, one in to survival, and two in to knowledge religion.  Survival and religion are cross class. Your BAB is still 1.

Third level-  Warmage (complete arcane).  This is the class I made 'famous' in marsh's campaign with the fire and the burnination and the oy gevalt.  You have four skill points.  Again, put one in to knowledge arcana, one in to survival, and two in to knowledge religion.   Take 'Versatile Spellcaster' (Races of the Dragon) as your feat.  Your BAB is still 1.


You now take four levels of Mystic Theurge to get yourself up to a Base Attack Bonus of +3 (the fourth level of theurge gives you +2, giving you a total of +3).  As to skills, you will have a total of 16 skill points to spend over those four levels.  Over those 4 levels, put 6 points in to survival, two in to move silently, two in to hide, and two in to knowledge nature.  All are cross class.  Put two in to knowledge arcana.  Spend the other two as you see fit.

Eighth level- "Wildrunner"  prestige class (races of the wild).  This is the reason for the bizarre skill and feat choices so far.  This level of prestige class doesn't advance your spells, but it is crucial because it gives you the druid ability 'trackless step' which will be necessary next level. You have seven skill points. Put three in to knowledge nature.  Use the other four as you wish.  This class will also give you another +1 to BAB, which means you have fulfilled all of the requirements for:


For your ninth through nineteenth, you take the prestige class "Arcane Hierophant" (Races of the Wild).  This is where it gets fun.  All of the bizarre skill and class choices leading up to this point have been so you can take this prestige class. Like Mystic theurge, you keep leveling your warmage and favored soul spell levels each time you level, but you have the added bonus of a d6 hit die, the ability to wear medium armor instead of light armor with no chance of arcane spell failure, and as you progress, you can start channeling touch spells through your familiar.  The only downside is that you miss a level of spells with the wildrunner level, so you will have to wait until level 19 instead of level 18 to cast ninth level spells.

If you get to 20, just take another level of mystic theurge.

What does all of this mean?  Well, it means that you will be uber versatile.  Favored soul gives the full cleric spell list, and you will get the full damage dealing goodness of the warmage spell list.  You will also have a significantly higher AC and hit points than the average spell caster, and you will have the skills (eventually) and the CHA to act as an effective 'party face.'  Note that if you ever find yourself in a campaign that doesn't have a primary magic user, all of the warmage stuff is pretty much interchangeable with straight sorcerer."

What do yall think?

Dictum Mortuum

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If LA adjustment is allowed: page 167 of Lords of Madness, the Shadow template. It's a +2 template that gives you evasion (and many more goodies).

So, considering you can convince a druid to give you speak language (druidic), you can go:

Shadow Illumian (for early entry tricks).

Beguiler 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Arcane Heirophant 10 (with LA bought off).

Beguiler is there for the skills, you'll need sleight of hand, perform, etc. With Able Learner you can do it at level 10.
Cloistered Cleric gives Lore, which is Bardic Knowledge, required for Arcane Heirophant.
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.


Littha

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Actually, if i was looking for a divine class that isnt cleric I would just take druid... and druids have motre blasty spells...

raith0

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without tricks warmage 1 and favored soul 1 do not get you into mystic theurg.  and both feats require at least 2 feats.  witch means you will need to take flaws to have them by 3rd level and have endurance as your feat. 
if you are allowed flaws i still think Warmage 1/ Rainbow Servant 10  would be more versitle than favored soul warmage.  for spells known. 

i personaly still like Arcane caster 1/ Archivist 2 as an illumian to enter into theurge.  will net you 11 levels arcane and 12 levels of ALL divine lists by 13th level and you will have a caster level of 13th for both sides.  if your set on doing a theurge type build with a spontaneous caster i would look at Kells Batman build here http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6771.0


hope this helps
ron

merkin

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without tricks warmage 1 and favored soul 1 do not get you into mystic theurg.  and both feats require at least 2 feats.  witch means you will need to take flaws to have them by 3rd level and have endurance as your feat. 
if you are allowed flaws i still think Warmage 1/ Rainbow Servant 10  would be more versitle than favored soul warmage.  for spells known. 

i personaly still like Arcane caster 1/ Archivist 2 as an illumian to enter into theurge.  will net you 11 levels arcane and 12 levels of ALL divine lists by 13th level and you will have a caster level of 13th for both sides.  if your set on doing a theurge type build with a spontaneous caster i would look at Kells Batman build here http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6771.0


hope this helps
ron

ron- I was under the impression that the versatile spellcaster feat got my proposed build in to theurge at level four.  Versatile spellcaster lets it cast second level spells, and it has the six ranks in knowledge arcana and knowledge religion.  If another feat needs to be taken, endurance can be pushed back.  I only listed it first to get it out of the way, but it isnt required until level the wildrunner level. 

Dictum Mortuum- as to the language: druidic requirement, favored soul gets tongues as a fourth level spell, so it can be cast with versatile spellcaster in time to make the prestige class.

raith0

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yes you need hieghtend spell versitle spell caster only gives you the spell slot.  i just wanted to make sure you knew you missed something.  and if illumian is negotiable you can also do a bamboo spirit folk from OA to get trackless step.  its racial so some DMs may not consider it the same thing.  but it is an option for you as well.  this way you wont have to worry about random levels of wildrunner or other non caster classess.  because with the your current build you would have dual 8s not dual 9s.  witch dual 8s is good but with a slight racial change you are good to go with dual 9s.

ron