Author Topic: Azrael  (Read 39516 times)

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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2010, 03:56:08 PM »
The several thousand year head start is implausible.  Especially as an elan, since they're pretty much the newest race on the block.

You also aren't going to get your universe as large as you say it is in that time, anyway.

Like I said, several thousand years was just a hopeful...it could be one year and that would be enough.

In every COP thread I have EVER seen no one has prepared for more than a week in advance...you can change your mind now and say that you guys prepare more than that now that you know there's a threat to you and you have to do so. But, since no one specified before and I am the first one to say such things I think that makes me the first one to do it...even so, it becomes a "anyone could have killed pun-pun before he gained power" argument, which is just stupid.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2010, 04:03:56 PM »
All I need time for is one question with COP and a free action.  Everything else is gravy.

That said, I've seen people argue they started out at the beginning of time back on 339, so you're a bit of a latecomer.
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2010, 04:59:43 PM »
Well you still cant COP me because I'm Vecna blooded...I have said this a thousand times and you keep ignoring it.

Ive countered every one of your arguments with either something that I already did, a mistake you made in your interpretations, or something that's an easy fix, but you keep ignoring some of mine; like the Vecna blooded or AMF one. Just admit that I win for once...geeze.


The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2010, 05:07:14 PM »
It's not a question about you.  It's a question about me.
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2010, 05:08:16 PM »
Which is?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2010, 05:10:26 PM »
I'll answer as soon as you explain how you can use Contact Other Plane to gather information related to yourself.
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2010, 05:22:52 PM »
Its the reverse of what you said. The questions are about other people, not myself.

"Does anyone have the capability to harm me" isn't gathering information about me, its gathering information about someone else.

Mine would return specific information about you but yours could only return yes or no answers.

Or

I could simply dispel the specific fusion which fuses the specific creature which is Vecna Blooded and then ask the questions (of course this is done under the effects of temporal accel).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 05:27:30 PM by Azrael »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2010, 05:44:37 PM »
That's still asking a question about you, in the same way that asking "Who fought against the Germans on the Eastern Front?" is still asking a question about Germany.

Anyway, the question is a fairly simple "will I win everything iff I do 'foo' next" where foo is my free/immediate action.  strap on a third eye: reveal, and presto.  I win everything.

Either I will win everything if I say "screw the rules I have money", in which case I say "screw the rules I have money", or I win if I don't say "screw the rules I have money", so I don't say it.  Either way I win.  

How does it happen?  Hell if I know.  But since a universe with me winning is the only logically consistent one, we have to go with that one.

If you want a different wording, you can use a XOR instead.  Same principle


Fusion using cloak of mystery looks like it results in amnesia for you.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 05:55:01 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2010, 06:04:39 PM »
You may be right about the fusion thing. However you forget one thing, if you are incapable of winning (as you are against Azrael) you'll never get a yes. Thus, best case it's a pseudo-stalemate, since we would never meet in the first place because you avoid me.

Wings of Peace

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2010, 04:29:13 AM »
Outsider ghost works via celestial attended birth and how region feats interact with RHD.

Or simply play Ghostwalk.  :)

Nameless Void

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2010, 06:09:26 AM »
I think the only problem with Vecna-blooded is: Vecna would have to deem you fit enough to be one who he (or rather his servants the Anchorites) would bestow it upon.

The problem: Vecna is neutral evil. And Vecna rules that which is not meant to be known and that which people wish to keep secret.

I believe Vecna would be the kind of God who would have an issue with you getting as powerful as you will get and would A) Not bestow his God-blooded powers upon you and B) probably slay you before you get as powerful as you are in your original post.

That said, very nice build Azreal. Very interesting concepts and you really must have spent time on it.  :clap
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2010, 02:40:15 PM »
Vecna wouldn't really have a choice because it would have been one of my low level believers that was vecna blooded. By the time he realized what was going on the believer would have already been part of me. He could then come after Azrael, but he would lose horribly.

That being said I think we have established I'm no longer vecna blooded because of the problems it would pose with cop.

And thanks, the character has been around since 05-06ish so I cant say how long it took me, but it didn't reach this final form until this week. I had been meaning to update it when I realized, 'hey, I can thrallherd a thrallherd' (and I added more abilities). The update took me about a week; on and off of course. Calculating all the feats, hp, skills, pp, etc (not that most of them mattered anyway) was the most time-consuming part.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 02:49:08 PM by Azrael »

Agita

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2010, 04:32:49 PM »
Vecna wouldn't really have a choice because it would have been one of my low level believers that was vecna blooded. By the time he realized what was going on the believer would have already been part of me. He could then come after Azrael, but he would lose horribly.
Be careful to wait with the assimilation for a few weeks. Gods can see a few weeks into the future.
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2010, 05:33:43 PM »
He would probably be the last thing Azrael assimilated so the character would basically be complete, minus the one minion. So yeah, I guess he would wait a while to assimilate the vecna blooded one and by then the character would be too powerful for Vecna to defeat...but its moot anyway since I wont be using the Vecna blooded. I think I would rather have the ability to COP myself, its pretty essential for Azrael's survival in the unlikely circumstance that he dies and the save-game activates...otherwise the situation may just repeat itself in an infinite loop...at that point he will probably have to use TML's line of questioning.

Besides, it really doesn't matter if people can COP him. Only a few would be able to do it since he waits a while before he confronts anyone and they would have had to prepare their COP's at least a year in advance; and very few do this. Afterward, the prestidigitation contingency will go off.

Even if people can COP Azrael I think the best they can do is discover a way to avoid him altogether...I don't even think pun-pun can defeat this character, he would just be another stalemate.

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2010, 05:55:09 PM »
By a certain interpretation of Manipulate Form, Pun-Pun can give himself custom abilities. Like:
Kill Azrael (Ex): Azrael dies, no matter where or when he is in relation to you (it even works across planar aboundaries). This ability offers no saving throw, cannot be countered, and it cannot be circumvented using save-games or any of that other silly stuff Azrael has. This ability does not take an action to activate, and can be activated whenever you damn well please, even if Azrael is currently in a Temporal Acceleration and even if you're somehow flat-footed. After Azrael has been killed by this ability, he cannot be brought back through any means, not even epic magic.

That's just something real quick, I'm sure TML can come up with a better one.
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2010, 06:43:03 PM »
By a certain interpretation of Manipulate Form, Pun-Pun can give himself custom abilities. Like:
Kill Azrael (Ex): Azrael dies, no matter where or when he is in relation to you (it even works across planar aboundaries). This ability offers no saving throw, cannot be countered, and it cannot be circumvented using save-games or any of that other silly stuff Azrael has. This ability does not take an action to activate, and can be activated whenever you damn well please, even if Azrael is currently in a Temporal Acceleration and even if you're somehow flat-footed. After Azrael has been killed by this ability, he cannot be brought back through any means, not even epic magic.

That's just something real quick, I'm sure TML can come up with a better one.

"By a certain interpretation"

...as I have pointed out many times before on RAW arguments, if there is something which can be reasonably interpreted 2 different ways it ceases to be raw and thus be be becomes a theoretical argument which means it ceases to become raw and is now TO...

By all means come up with something better.

I'm not saying I could beat him either, just that it would be a stalemate and thus they would choose to play a game like chess (no divination honor rules) to settle their differences. I think there's a lot of characters out there that can stalemate pun-pun (well maybe a handful). All these characters should all just get together and create some sort of 'Time Lord' organization or something.


Agita

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2010, 06:57:21 PM »
By a certain interpretation of Manipulate Form, Pun-Pun can give himself custom abilities. Like:
Kill Azrael (Ex): Azrael dies, no matter where or when he is in relation to you (it even works across planar aboundaries). This ability offers no saving throw, cannot be countered, and it cannot be circumvented using save-games or any of that other silly stuff Azrael has. This ability does not take an action to activate, and can be activated whenever you damn well please, even if Azrael is currently in a Temporal Acceleration and even if you're somehow flat-footed. After Azrael has been killed by this ability, he cannot be brought back through any means, not even epic magic.

That's just something real quick, I'm sure TML can come up with a better one.

"By a certain interpretation"
Well, if I recall correctly (don't have Serpent Kingdoms in front of me right now), it's not so much a certain interpretation as it is the ability simply lacking a clause that limits you to already-existing abilities, so it could be called RAW. Dodgy RAW, but RAW. Kind of like a Shaedling making epic artifacts.
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2010, 07:08:35 PM »
Even if that is RAW (though I would argue that creating an ability that doesn't exist can only be done by a DM) then whats stopping something from killing pun-pun with the same ability?

Agita

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2010, 07:11:50 PM »
Even if that is RAW (though I would argue that creating an ability that doesn't exist can only be done by a DM) then whats stopping something from killing pun-pun with the same ability?
The fact that noone else has the ability, because Pun-Pun just made it up on the spot?
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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2010, 09:03:02 PM »
yeah but anyone with the manipulate form ability (or shapechange/metamorphic transfer; and Azrael is one of them) could theoretically create Kill Pun-Pun (Ex)

So therefore it becomes a chicken and the egg thing yet again. Whoever has the ability first wins because they kill off everyone else that possesses manipulate form so it can never be used against them...and those arguments are stupid. The only way to prevent such an argument from occurring is to simply rule that the ability cannot create abilities which do not exist.


Therefore, that ability cannot kill Azrael...because, if you argue that it can, you might as well argue that Pun-Pun just killed him while he was in his mothers womb, or vice-versa.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 09:06:41 PM by Azrael »