Author Topic: Azrael  (Read 39512 times)

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Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #220 on: September 29, 2010, 10:21:39 PM »
Firstly, I do have unlimited actions.

Secondly, bloodwind is permanent on me, I could apply an empower one day (actually I can only do it about 13 times a day with MME), and do more a week later on the same one.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #221 on: September 29, 2010, 10:26:02 PM »
Sorry for my ignorance but I read the first post and don't see how you have unlimited actions.

And the thought that 13 empowers a week will eventually grant infinite range gives the idea that you don't understand the concept of infinity.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #222 on: September 29, 2010, 11:12:52 PM »
Synchronicity Nova...you know, that thing I invented (at least I'm pretty sure I did, since no one ever talked about it until I posted it on the boards, which, afterward, there were a storm of builds utilizing it and it was the talk of the town...which was then manipulated into the dominant ideal novaing).

13 a day, my plane has accelerated time. Or one could argue that a "day" can pass within timestop (if you have it active that long) and thus you would gain your uses back...though I admit that may be stretching it.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 11:16:04 PM by Azrael »

Bozwevial

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #223 on: September 29, 2010, 11:25:01 PM »
No, Synchronicity abuse has been around for a long time. Please stop trying to take credit for what other people have done.

Edit: And as for your attitude? It started around reply 25. So no, it wasn't in response to someone else being rude.

betrayor

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #224 on: September 29, 2010, 11:28:45 PM »
A question How are you making sure that the Thralls and the followers you have are exactly of the level and class you want?
Isn't this metagaming?
Pardon me if this is a special ability of your build.....
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 11:37:14 PM by betrayor »

bearsarebrown

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #225 on: September 29, 2010, 11:36:40 PM »
If you can only do it 13 times a day then it will never be infinite.  If you can do it 13 times a second it will never be infinite.  If you can do it a million times a millisecond it will never be infinite.

Distinctions like this are what makes builds like the Omnificier or HIVE so strong.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #226 on: September 30, 2010, 01:44:01 AM »
No, Synchronicity abuse has been around for a long time. Please stop trying to take credit for what other people have done.

Edit: And as for your attitude? It started around reply 25. So no, it wasn't in response to someone else being rude.

Synchronicity Affinity field abuse has been around, Pun-Pun did it I know. However, as far as I know no one did it with linked power before me.

Maybe thats your impression of "having an attitude" its not mine...subjectivity, its a wonderful thing.

If you can only do it 13 times a day then it will never be infinite.  If you can do it 13 times a second it will never be infinite.  If you can do it a million times a millisecond it will never be infinite.

Distinctions like this are what makes builds like the Omnificier or HIVE so strong.

I don't think you understood my argument about the time stop, unless of course your basically telling me it wouldn't work. Also, I really only need enough range to extend around the entire planet...I'm sure with an accelerated time plane that's easy.

Bozwevial

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #227 on: September 30, 2010, 02:00:05 AM »
Linked Power crops up in the third post. Second, if you don't count the OP. You're complaining that no one except Kell read your build when you had to be told where the actual rules text for Craft Contingent Spell was and didn't read more than a line or two into the link I provided?

As for subjectivity, there are a good deal more people in this thread who believe you are being unnecessarily hostile than those who don't. This isn't an isolated event with a single poster, several people have pointed out that you're behaving in an arrogant fashion. You can hardly claim it was in response to someone else, either, since by your own admission the extent of one person's "hubris" was daring to think he could beat you with an artificer. That doesn't sound like an attack to me at all. If you need something on the level of the artificer to bring a build down, it's clearly pretty potent. No one's denying the fact that Azrael is a tough cookie (he is), we're just pointing out that a) he doesn't bring anything new to the table, he just combines old tricks into a build, and b) you aren't presenting him as someone who wants to get a community opinion on his build, you're presenting him as someone who wants praise and will attack anyone who doesn't give it. Insulting other members, criticizing their optimization skills, and then taking credit for what others have done is not the way to go about gaining acclaim for your work.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #228 on: September 30, 2010, 04:08:31 AM »
Linked Power crops up in the third post. Second, if you don't count the OP. You're complaining that no one except Kell read your build when you had to be told where the actual rules text for Craft Contingent Spell was and didn't read more than a line or two into the link I provided?

As for subjectivity, there are a good deal more people in this thread who believe you are being unnecessarily hostile than those who don't. This isn't an isolated event with a single poster, several people have pointed out that you're behaving in an arrogant fashion. You can hardly claim it was in response to someone else, either, since by your own admission the extent of one person's "hubris" was daring to think he could beat you with an artificer. That doesn't sound like an attack to me at all. If you need something on the level of the artificer to bring a build down, it's clearly pretty potent. No one's denying the fact that Azrael is a tough cookie (he is), we're just pointing out that a) he doesn't bring anything new to the table, he just combines old tricks into a build, and b) you aren't presenting him as someone who wants to get a community opinion on his build, you're presenting him as someone who wants praise and will attack anyone who doesn't give it. Insulting other members, criticizing their optimization skills, and then taking credit for what others have done is not the way to go about gaining acclaim for your work.

I wasn't going to go through an entire fucking thread just to see if every synchronicity idea popped up...yeah it popped up on the third post but I wasn't going to go through all that "potential" trouble...you'll also notice that I only claimed that I "thought" I might have invented it...didn't claim I did.

As for the craft contingent spell...oops, my bad, I have read the feat several times before, I was just mistaken...my memory isn't perfect...fucking sue me (and don't try and say something like "well why are you exempt from your mistakes yet you come down hard on others when they make the same ones?" It wasn't the same mistake, only similar. I simply didn't remember something was there, what fallen angle did is completely fabricate something that wasn't there i.e. the Azrael having MDJ prepared when he clearly didn't).

Ohhh, ok then...so you're saying that just because a lot of people see something the same way it makes it more true...well Jesus (no future pun intended) if that's the case then I guess a huge population of the world must be right about their whole organized religion thing...you know, because so many people believe it, its totally less subjective, and thus makes it true...guess I better change my evil ways or this Anthropomorphic God of theirs is going to smite me.

Now onto the bolded statement...THANK YOU FOR FINALLY SAYING EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT AZRAEL THIS WHOLE FUCKING TIME!! If the only builds you guys can bring in to combat Azrael are two of the most powerful builds in CO history than DAMN he must be powerful! I know, I know, you never said he wasn't...However, you did say he wasn't worthy of being considered one of the best CO builds. I think you just proved yourself wrong...thanks a bunch :D

Oh, and P.S. I can easily defeat his artificer with my 20th level straight sorcerer (which is actually a character you could play in a real game...imagine that) I didn't need Azrael, that was just the challenge.



Onto the last bit...



Lets just see how completely moot and pointless your argument is…

First of all, I only took 2 ideas from other people; and they were added after the character was finished. Those two ideas were the CoP use, and the respawn contingency...and guess what? I gave proper credit to both of them (well, at least Phaedrus, since I didn't know who created the respawn thingy) because that's what you do in Academia, and I have grown accustom to such devices.

Secondly, how about you define original for me? Is it original if you have an idea that you came up on your own without being influenced by any other source? If not then I've got sad news for you HARDLY ANYTHING IS ORIGINAL! Sure some other people may have thought of the idea, but if you're worried about having an "original" idea that no one has ever thought of you automatically FAIL.

As that saying goes 'if you have a thought/idea, chances are six other people have had, or are having that idea at the exact same moment as you.' Here's an example: (this is directed more at males so females probably cant sympathize) have you ever just gotten totally grossed out when you get into a public restroom and there's just piss all over the toilet seat because some lazy bastard didn't care to lift it up? Me too...so one day I got to thinking, what if you apply the same (really the reverse) mechanics they use in those flip calculators (you know, the ones everyone just seem to love for no real good reason) to toilet seats? Basically, you would have easy to design, cheap, self-lifting toilet seats (which would require minimal pressure to keep down) that you could easily install in public bathrooms everywhere and save your customers from being totally grossed out by how disgusting the rest of humanity is (at least somewhat anyway). So what did I do, I looked online to see if anyone had thought of such a thing...and wouldn't cha' know it, there were several pattons, not just on my idea, but plenty of other variations...

Now, does that make it any less of an original idea...NO! Its just life...

Do you think Einstein invented physics, or Mozart music? No, they just took a bunch of other people's ideas, theories, etc and combined them into their own unique thing...which, in case you don't live in the real world, IS HOW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS CREATED! Where do you think the word inspiration came from, hmmm?

Just like I was inspired by Kell's idea about widening a Maw of Chaos to Widen his AMF so that no one could perceive Azrael unless they were inside the field, thus basically forcing them to waste an action buffing (yeah, maybe a character like the H.I.V.E. wouldn't have to, but almost every other character would...see what I did there, I took something someone else thought of, changed it a bit, and made it my own unique defense...which is something that (as far as I know) no one has EVER thought of doing...for christ sake, it basically makes him completely unapproachable by anything save for billions of characters coming at me at once...another reason that, if it came down to an actual fight (not them hiding in some extradimensional space sending out Astral Projections), I would beat pretty much all those 20th level wizards out there that you say are on par with Azrael...hell, why don't we take out the TO from all characters including Azrael...Azrael wins...since there are no CoP, no infinte actions, etc...hes pretty much invincible, and since the entire character H.I.V.E. relies on TO, he no longer exists...you see, that's the REAL power of Azrael, he doesn't need TO to be ultra powerful, most of these other characters do...and I think that's worth mentioning...but I digress.


Now, if you want to make an issue that using things like genesis is a rip off then I guess any build that uses any common spell is ripping off of 10,000 other builds...what a ridiculous argument...Its like telling the wizard that uses magic missile that hes not being original because 100000000000000000000000000000000 wizards before him use(d) the spell.


In conclusion, your argument is pointless. Sure, there's no way I can prove to you that it was an original idea and not ripped off someone else, but I know, and that's enough for me. Because to me, you're all just faceless internet folks that have no bearing on my real life so I couldn't give a shit about what you think about me personally. The truth is, if you ever met me in person you would probably think I'm one of the nicest people you have ever met, I'm extremely easy to get along with...whatever it is that I exude in this internet form of mine is obviously a butchery of my real personality.

Perhaps it is the way I'm putting myself out there, or perhaps its the way you are perceiving it...remember, its the internet folks, any information that you don't know about a person is automatically filled in by your own prejudices, biases, and thoughts...ever had that experience when you've been talking to someone online for a long time and you finally meet them in person and they are NOTHING like you expected...yeah, same thing...




And Azrael does bring something new to the table...why do you think I posted him in the first place. You're forgetting the original context (not that you were necessarily involved and could have remembered) in which he was brought up. Someone mentioned on the 'post your sig char' board after I posted a brief description of Azrael that they had never seen a 'fusion' char before, and would love to see the possibilities of min-maxing fusion. That's whats original about Azrael...the fact that hes the first char to really optimize (without becoming a God...though I guess now I should post that version as well) the fusion power (to my knowledge). H.I.V.E. has its niche as being many from one, Azrael is the opposite, one from many.

That, and the whole not having to rely on TO to be super powerful...I think that was a good point :D Honestly, the character was basically completed before I added all that CoP and other shit in there...I just figured that since he was capable of it, and everyone else was doing it, I should as well...hell, it will only make him more powerful and I figured I would get called out on NOT using it, if I didn't...Guess this is just another case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 04:22:54 AM by Azrael »

fallen-angle

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #229 on: September 30, 2010, 06:30:23 AM »
Gonna have to dissect this tirade piece by piece.

I wasn't going to go through an entire fucking thread just to see if every synchronicity idea popped up...yeah it popped up on the third post but I wasn't going to go through all that "potential" trouble...you'll also notice that I only claimed that I "thought" I might have invented it...didn't claim I did.

So, basically you didn't want to do thorough research into a topic and therefore claimed that you probably are the originator. While admittedly nothing stops you from doing this on a forum it does bring the originality of the whole build and the credibility of your statements into question. Essentially you either end up being ignorant or a liar.

This could have been phrased "I haven't seen much use of syncronicity on the boards." That would not claim total originality for the idea. But no, you claimed to have "invented" it. Invented, meaning that you personally came up with the idea before anyone else. Which brings us to your next statement...  

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As for the craft contingent spell...oops, my bad, I have read the feat several times before, I was just mistaken...my memory isn't perfect...fucking sue me (and don't try and say something like "well why are you exempt from your mistakes yet you come down hard on others when they make the same ones?" It wasn't the same mistake, only similar. I simply didn't remember something was there, what fallen angle did is completely fabricate something that wasn't there i.e. the Azrael having MDJ prepared when he clearly didn't).

You admit to arguing out of ignorance. That is generally something you apologize for, you know, when you are wrong. As you admit to having been. Instead you appear to have attacked everyone for, correctly, accusing you of being incorrect.

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Ohhh, ok then...so you're saying that just because a lot of people see something the same way it makes it more true...well Jesus (no future pun intended) if that's the case then I guess a huge population of the world must be right about their whole organized religion thing...you know, because so many people believe it, its totally less subjective, and thus makes it true...guess I better change my evil ways or this Anthropomorphic God of theirs is going to smite me.

I am not entirely sure where this comes from. In the case of community based, subjective games such as D&D it is generally the case that when a large group concurs on something it is considered the more appropriate interpretation. Indeed, given that the whole game is imaginary I could simply disagree that your build works that way, based on my own interpretation Fusion would not be stackable and Thrallherds couldn't dominate Thrallherds. So if we want to argue that every opinion is perfectly valid, it will probably get pretty dicey.

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Now onto the bolded statement...THANK YOU FOR FINALLY SAYING EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT AZRAEL THIS WHOLE FUCKING TIME!! If the only builds you guys can bring in to combat Azrael are two of the most powerful builds in CO history than DAMN he must be powerful! I know, I know, you never said he wasn't...However, you did say he wasn't worthy of being considered one of the best CO builds. I think you just proved yourself wrong...thanks a bunch :D

What he meant when he said that he wasn't worthy of being considered one of the best CO builds is for two reasons. First is that he doesn't really highlight anything new. That isn't to say he doesn't have something new, but it isn't highlighted. Pun Pun was all about how broken the Manipulate Form power was. Omnificer showed off a neat low level trick for massive skills. H.I.V.E. was and is the strongest application of the hivemind rules. Each build wasn't simply good, but was presented in a manner that showcased its core strength.

What does Azrael showcase. The Twice Betrayer of Shar's near invunerability in an antimagic field? The well known strength of Genisis? That fusion has highly ambiguous rules? Infinite actions though power point abuse? How about the Cheater of Mystra's wishing powers? I'll agree that I, personally, hadn't heard of syncronicity prior to this, but I also didn't know about it until the 11th page of this thread. If that is his shtick, sell it.

People are not obliged to read this, they aren't obligated to figure it out. Advertisers fall into this pitfall all the time. If you want people to like what you made you have to sell it too them. Hell Azrael has been praised by just about everyone as powerful, yet people continue not to like it because he was pitched in such an aggressive manner.

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Oh, and P.S. I can easily defeat his artificer with my 20th level straight sorcerer (which is actually a character you could play in a real game...imagine that) I didn't need Azrael, that was just the challenge.

That is nice dear.

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Academia. I am afraid standard for writing in "academia" are vastly higher than what you have presented. In a proper academic article you would be help accountable for every idea presented, not simply the ones you cite. In this case I would have expected an elaborate bibliography. The assorted CO boards would need metion, as would some of the key builds that this borrows from. Indeed even if (in the very very unlikely scenario) you did actually dig all this out of the books by yourself you would STILL have to cite the builds who did it before you.

That is how academic work goes. Nothing is original except for the work you can PROVE you did. You can't prove you EVERYTHING yourself (and by everything I mean figure out each of these tricks with no outside stimuli or help. NONE) therefore you should have started with a blanket thanks to the CO boards for all the work they've put in that you didn't have to do.

In its current state it would barely weasel by with a D+, based solely on the fact that you clearly did put in a bunch of time. But that is if it was being evaluated by an academic board. It isn't, so none of the above has any value.

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Secondly, how about you define original for me? Is it original if you have an idea that you came up on your own without being influenced by any other source? If not then I've got sad news for you HARDLY ANYTHING IS ORIGINAL! Sure some other people may have thought of the idea, but if you're worried about having an "original" idea that no one has ever thought of you automatically FAIL.

As that saying goes 'if you have a thought/idea, chances are six other people have had, or are having that idea at the exact same moment as you.' Here's an example: (this is directed more at males so females probably cant sympathize) have you ever just gotten totally grossed out when you get into a public restroom and there's just piss all over the toilet seat because some lazy bastard didn't care to lift it up? Me too...so one day I got to thinking, what if you apply the same (really the reverse) mechanics they use in those flip calculators (you know, the ones everyone just seem to love for no real good reason) to toilet seats? Basically, you would have easy to design, cheap, self-lifting toilet seats (which would require minimal pressure to keep down) that you could easily install in public bathrooms everywhere and save your customers from being totally grossed out by how disgusting the rest of humanity is (at least somewhat anyway). So what did I do, I looked online to see if anyone had thought of such a thing...and wouldn't cha' know it, there were several pattons, not just on my idea, but plenty of other variations...

Now, does that make it any less of an original idea...NO! Its just life...

You are right. There is nothing original anymore. Especially not in D&D, where all classes and character were someone else's idea to begin with. I encourage you to look to the boards and attempt to find other authors who claim their works to be original. It isn't common. It is especially uncommon in builds that receive any respect.

The following quote will lead into my next point:

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Do you think Einstein invented physics, or Mozart music? No, they just took a bunch of other people's ideas, theories, etc and combined them into their own unique thing...which, in case you don't live in the real world, IS HOW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS CREATED! Where do you think the word inspiration came from, hmmm?

Einstein didn't create physics, Mozart didn't create music. Neither claimed to have done so. What they did was do it better. They each took about their chosen profession in a manner that was rare and brilliant.

Which brings me back to "selling" the post. This could have been a very well received character if he had been presented in a manner that was pleasing to the eye, easy to read, and well explained. Links to where the assorted tricks came from. Or in the case that you believe they were totally original, lengthy explanations of how they worked.

I will repeat. We are NOT obligated to read your post. You have to make people want to read it. To do that you make it easy to read. You yourself admit that the formatting was screwed up, but even with the most excellent formatting it is still a long read, with very many tricks taken for granted. If everyone aside from Kell had a hard time understanding it, there are two possibilities.
1) Everyone is an idiot except for yourself and Kell.
2) The post was confusing and took more work to understand than most people wanted to put in.
Which of these i more likely?

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Just like I was inspired by Kell's idea about widening a Maw of Chaos to Widen his AMF so that no one could perceive Azrael unless they were inside the field, thus basically forcing them to waste an action buffing (yeah, maybe a character like the H.I.V.E. wouldn't have to, but almost every other character would...see what I did there, I took something someone else thought of, changed it a bit, and made it my own unique defense...which is something that (as far as I know) no one has EVER thought of doing...for christ sake, it basically makes him completely unapproachable by anything save for billions of characters coming at me at once...another reason that, if it came down to an actual fight (not them hiding in some extradimensional space sending out Astral Projections), I would beat pretty much all those 20th level wizards out there that you say are on par with Azrael...hell, why don't we take out the TO from all characters including Azrael...Azrael wins...since there are no CoP, no infinte actions, etc...hes pretty much invincible, and since the entire character H.I.V.E. relies on TO, he no longer exists...you see, that's the REAL power of Azrael, he doesn't need TO to be ultra powerful, most of these other characters do...and I think that's worth mentioning...but I digress.

YOU DID IT AGAIN! You just claimed something else was your own totally original idea after just pointing out that all ideas come together from a communal effort. I know you added (as far as I know) but your own ignorance is not a defense for being wrong. This is especially awful to see from someone who went on an antireligious tirade just a few paragraphs before.

On the Theoretical Optimization point: Was this the selling strength of the character? Why was it not highlighted. Hell that is a ridiculously board claim to make in the first place. I would like to see evidence of that claim. (FYI, before you tell me to go look it up, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Otherwise I could state "There are puppies that could beat Azrael" and expect YOU to prove it to ME.)

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Now, if you want to make an issue that using things like genesis is a rip off then I guess any build that uses any common spell is ripping off of 10,000 other builds...what a ridiculous argument...Its like telling the wizard that uses magic missile that hes not being original because 100000000000000000000000000000000 wizards before him use(d) the spell.

He isn't being original. He isn't claiming to be.

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In conclusion, your argument is pointless. Sure, there's no way I can prove to you that it was an original idea and not ripped off someone else, but I know, and that's enough for me. Because to me, you're all just faceless internet folks that have no bearing on my real life so I couldn't give a shit about what you think about me personally. The truth is, if you ever met me in person you would probably think I'm one of the nicest people you have ever met, I'm extremely easy to get along with...whatever it is that I exude in this internet form of mine is obviously a butchery of my real personality.

Perhaps it is the way I'm putting myself out there, or perhaps its the way you are perceiving it...remember, its the internet folks, any information that you don't know about a person is automatically filled in by your own prejudices, biases, and thoughts...ever had that experience when you've been talking to someone online for a long time and you finally meet them in person and they are NOTHING like you expected...yeah, same thing...

If it was good enough for you you would have stopped. People who genuinely don't care about other peoples opinions don't argue about them.

The person you are online and the person you are in real life are one in the same. Someone else isn't making you type these things, someone else isn't insulting people online. It is you. You are doing it. Even if you are the nicest guy in person that doesn't make a lick of difference in how you acted here. The fact that you DID bring it up suggests that you are feeling personally assaulted.

Let me remind you, most of us don't care that much. So rest at ease, no one cares who you are or what you are like in real life. (Unless they do, perhaps I am making an excessively blanket statement)

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And Azrael does bring something new to the table...why do you think I posted him in the first place. You're forgetting the original context (not that you were necessarily involved and could have remembered) in which he was brought up. Someone mentioned on the 'post your sig char' board after I posted a brief description of Azrael that they had never seen a 'fusion' char before, and would love to see the possibilities of min-maxing fusion. That's whats original about Azrael...the fact that hes the first char to really optimize (without becoming a God...though I guess now I should post that version as well) the fusion power (to my knowledge). H.I.V.E. has its niche as being many from one, Azrael is the opposite, one from many.

That, and the whole not having to rely on TO to be super powerful...I think that was a good point :D Honestly, the character was basically completed before I added all that CoP and other shit in there...I just figured that since he was capable of it, and everyone else was doing it, I should as well...hell, it will only make him more powerful and I figured I would get called out on NOT using it, if I didn't...Guess this is just another case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'

I won't repeat that bit about failing to sell the idea to us, I've said it twice now in this one post.

In conclusion. Azrael is great. No one is arguing he is not. However he has been presented in such a way as to make him hostile, confusing, and made to appear utterly unoriginal. You, Azrael, the OP. Became personally invested in the argument and began to take personal offense to anything that challenged your creation. As a result you launched personal attacks on the people who commented, incurring further personal attacks in response. You even went so far as to being in a completely different post that had nothing to do with this one. Just to attack me, personally.

The final outcome of all this is that several people here have developed a rather keen image of how you act (this isn't really an inherent prejudice, there has been ample communication). Some found it to be repulsive and had their own guttural response to set you straight.

The best POSSIBLE response for you now would be: "This conversation has degraded to immature name calling. Regardless of who started it, I will end it." Then stop making long personal responses to anyone. For any reason. Ideally you could go rework the original post, which several people have said was aggressive and confusing. On the other hand, if you don't care about people's opinion on him then you could ask an admin to close the topic and make space on the front page for other posts.

Thank you for your time.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 06:31:55 AM by fallen-angle »
Master Transmographist Guide (In Progress): http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9277.20

Waazraath

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #230 on: September 30, 2010, 09:38:33 AM »
A question How are you making sure that the Thralls and the followers you have are exactly of the level and class you want?
Isn't this metagaming?
Pardon me if this is a special ability of your build.....

This is actually quite a good question, from the DM-guide: "A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. .... The DM determines the details of the cohort." (emphasis mine). Would suggest that anything besides race, class and alignment (like skills and feats) is up to the DM anyway. Isn't it?

Bozwevial

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #231 on: September 30, 2010, 02:29:56 PM »
I wasn't going to go through an entire fucking thread just to see if every synchronicity idea popped up...yeah it popped up on the third post but I wasn't going to go through all that "potential" trouble...you'll also notice that I only claimed that I "thought" I might have invented it...didn't claim I did.

"Synchronicity Nova...you know that thing I invented."

And like I said, it's in the third post. Even if you were to only read that thread for the pictures, you would have seen it. The "entire fucking thread" is three posts long. I barely had to do any work to find it, it would have taken maybe 30 seconds to read it and realize that you weren't the first to use Linked Power in conjunction. Even after I provided the thread for you, you didn't bother to read it, instead claiming in defiance of the evidence I had given that you were the first to use Linked Power, which is a pretty poor way to conduct an argument. I had to wade through Azrael's sheet, I think the least you can do is read to the third damn post in a thread.

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As for the craft contingent spell...oops, my bad, I have read the feat several times before, I was just mistaken...my memory isn't perfect...fucking sue me (and don't try and say something like "well why are you exempt from your mistakes yet you come down hard on others when they make the same ones?" It wasn't the same mistake, only similar. I simply didn't remember something was there, what fallen angle did is completely fabricate something that wasn't there i.e. the Azrael having MDJ prepared when he clearly didn't).

It's only the most important way that CCS differs from Contingency. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect you to have read the feat in its entirety, or to notice the disclaimer at the end of the feat that provides a reference. As for Fallen Angle, you detail in the first post that Azrael uses COP to determine the best way to counter threats. His spell preparation is hardly immutable.

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Ohhh, ok then...so you're saying that just because a lot of people see something the same way it makes it more true...well Jesus (no future pun intended) if that's the case then I guess a huge population of the world must be right about their whole organized religion thing...you know, because so many people believe it, its totally less subjective, and thus makes it true...guess I better change my evil ways or this Anthropomorphic God of theirs is going to smite me.

This isn't a religion debate. This is a lot of people arriving at the same conclusion independently: You're acting unnecessarily hostile and arrogant. There's a saying. If one person calls you a duck, laugh it off. If two people call you a duck, start to wonder. If three people call you a duck, take swimming lessons and learn to like bread.

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Now onto the bolded statement...THANK YOU FOR FINALLY SAYING EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ABOUT AZRAEL THIS WHOLE FUCKING TIME!! If the only builds you guys can bring in to combat Azrael are two of the most powerful builds in CO history than DAMN he must be powerful! I know, I know, you never said he wasn't...However, you did say he wasn't worthy of being considered one of the best CO builds. I think you just proved yourself wrong...thanks a bunch :D

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Azrael is a powerful build. However, that alone doesn't make him worthy of being famous in CO terms. What does Azrael do that's unique?

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Oh, and P.S. I can easily defeat his artificer with my 20th level straight sorcerer (which is actually a character you could play in a real game...imagine that) I didn't need Azrael, that was just the challenge.


Did anyone mention your sorcerer? Or care? How is this relevant to the argument?

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I'm not denying you created Azrael yourself. The key point here is that a lot of the tricks, if not all of them, existed before now.

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Secondly, how about you define original for me? Is it original if you have an idea that you came up on your own without being influenced by any other source? If not then I've got sad news for you HARDLY ANYTHING IS ORIGINAL! Sure some other people may have thought of the idea, but if you're worried about having an "original" idea that no one has ever thought of you automatically FAIL.

There are still original tricks cropping up here all the time. Go take a look around the forum. Caelic's cookie-themed Shadowcraft Mage, the 6th level DFA/Nosomatic Chirurgeon with 12d6 breath weapons--those are new combinations that cropped up recently. Yes, it is possible to be original in this context.

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As that saying goes 'if you have a thought/idea, chances are six other people have had, or are having that idea at the exact same moment as you.' Here's an example: (this is directed more at males so females probably cant sympathize) have you ever just gotten totally grossed out when you get into a public restroom and there's just piss all over the toilet seat because some lazy bastard didn't care to lift it up? Me too...so one day I got to thinking, what if you apply the same (really the reverse) mechanics they use in those flip calculators (you know, the ones everyone just seem to love for no real good reason) to toilet seats? Basically, you would have easy to design, cheap, self-lifting toilet seats (which would require minimal pressure to keep down) that you could easily install in public bathrooms everywhere and save your customers from being totally grossed out by how disgusting the rest of humanity is (at least somewhat anyway). So what did I do, I looked online to see if anyone had thought of such a thing...and wouldn't cha' know it, there were several pattons, not just on my idea, but plenty of other variations...

Now, does that make it any less of an original idea...NO! Its just life...

The difference here is that you claimed to have invented one of these ideas. I showed you evidence to the contrary, and you blithely ignored it, saying you were "pretty sure" you were the first to improve on it in this manner when it was really clear that you weren't. So you didn't bother to read the argument presented and take it seriously, which doesn't help your case.

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Do you think Einstein invented physics, or Mozart music? No, they just took a bunch of other people's ideas, theories, etc and combined them into their own unique thing...which, in case you don't live in the real world, IS HOW ALMOST EVERYTHING IS CREATED! Where do you think the word inspiration came from, hmmm?

This analogy isn't relevant at all. Physics and music are huge fields. That would be like me saying that Tsuyoshikentsu or Khan "invented" optimization. They made advances in those fields. The key difference here is that while Einstein used those other ideas as a springboard to devise (and I'm going to bold this part because it's important) new developments in his field, you're taking a bunch of ideas that already existed, lumping them together, and expecting the kind of praise that Khan got for coming up with Pun-Pun.

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Just like I was inspired by Kell's idea about widening a Maw of Chaos to Widen his AMF so that no one could perceive Azrael unless they were inside the field, thus basically forcing them to waste an action buffing (yeah, maybe a character like the H.I.V.E. wouldn't have to, but almost every other character would...see what I did there, I took something someone else thought of, changed it a bit, and made it my own unique defense...which is something that (as far as I know) no one has EVER thought of doing...for christ sake, it basically makes him completely unapproachable by anything save for billions of characters coming at me at once...another reason that, if it came down to an actual fight (not them hiding in some extradimensional space sending out Astral Projections), I would beat pretty much all those 20th level wizards out there that you say are on par with Azrael...hell, why don't we take out the TO from all characters including Azrael...Azrael wins...since there are no CoP, no infinte actions, etc...hes pretty much invincible, and since the entire character H.I.V.E. relies on TO, he no longer exists...you see, that's the REAL power of Azrael, he doesn't need TO to be ultra powerful, most of these other characters do...and I think that's worth mentioning...but I digress.


More bolding for emphasis: This IS TO. Azrael is a Thrallherd with Thrallherd thralls and so on, Fusing himself with all his thralls and believers (which, I might add, are cherrypicked, rather than the DM-selected thralls that you would normally get), keeping his powers going with a Font of Power supplemented by Temporal Reiteration. I could stop there, not even mentioning the other tricks he uses, and it would be enough. This is quite simply beyond the level of power you could reasonably expect to use in the vast majority of games.


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Now, if you want to make an issue that using things like genesis is a rip off then I guess any build that uses any common spell is ripping off of 10,000 other builds...what a ridiculous argument...Its like telling the wizard that uses magic missile that hes not being original because 100000000000000000000000000000000 wizards before him use(d) the spell.

I don't have a problem with Genesis. What I have a problem with is you expecting to take your place in CO history because you threw together a bunch of old tricks. Again, let me pose the question: What does Azrael do that no one else has done before? Thrallherd abuse? Fusion abuse? Temporal Reiteration/Font of Power abuse? High-level spells like Genesis, COP, Time Stop, Contingencies? Synchronicity Nova? Greater Consumptive Field CL abuse? The psicrystal save game mechanic?

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In conclusion, your argument is pointless. Sure, there's no way I can prove to you that it was an original idea and not ripped off someone else, but I know, and that's enough for me. Because to me, you're all just faceless internet folks that have no bearing on my real life so I couldn't give a shit about what you think about me personally. The truth is, if you ever met me in person you would probably think I'm one of the nicest people you have ever met, I'm extremely easy to get along with...whatever it is that I exude in this internet form of mine is obviously a butchery of my real personality.

Perhaps it is the way I'm putting myself out there, or perhaps its the way you are perceiving it...remember, its the internet folks, any information that you don't know about a person is automatically filled in by your own prejudices, biases, and thoughts...ever had that experience when you've been talking to someone online for a long time and you finally meet them in person and they are NOTHING like you expected...yeah, same thing...

Be that as it may, you have time to think over your responses on the Internet. You could easily avoid coming across as hostile, but it's pervaded the thread.

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And Azrael does bring something new to the table...why do you think I posted him in the first place. You're forgetting the original context (not that you were necessarily involved and could have remembered) in which he was brought up. Someone mentioned on the 'post your sig char' board after I posted a brief description of Azrael that they had never seen a 'fusion' char before, and would love to see the possibilities of min-maxing fusion. That's whats original about Azrael...the fact that hes the first char to really optimize (without becoming a God...though I guess now I should post that version as well) the fusion power (to my knowledge). H.I.V.E. has its niche as being many from one, Azrael is the opposite, one from many.


Fusion (ab)use has been around since the 100^10 contest. (Probably also since the XYZ of Smack builds, but I digress.)

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That, and the whole not having to rely on TO to be super powerful...I think that was a good point :D Honestly, the character was basically completed before I added all that CoP and other shit in there...I just figured that since he was capable of it, and everyone else was doing it, I should as well...hell, it will only make him more powerful and I figured I would get called out on NOT using it, if I didn't...Guess this is just another case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'

How many times do I have to say it? This is TO. This is TO. This is TO. This is theoretical optimization. If you tried even the small portion I cited earlier in the vast majority of games, you'd have a book flying at your head. Theoretical optimization is stuff that isn't meant to be played in an actual game because it exceeds the bounds of accepted power by a significant margin. Azrael was TO well before the other stuff came into play.

Azrael

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #232 on: September 30, 2010, 05:01:01 PM »
"Synchronicity Nova...you know that thing I invented."


Wow...way to selectively quote...just further proof that you're using little weasly tricks to win your argument...what I really said was this.

Synchronicity Nova...you know, that thing I invented (at least I'm pretty sure I did, since no one ever talked about it until I posted it on the boards, which, afterward, there were a storm of builds utilizing it and it was the talk of the town...which was then manipulated into the dominant ideal novaing).

Quite different...

More bolding for emphasis: This IS TO. Azrael is a Thrallherd with Thrallherd thralls and so on, Fusing himself with all his thralls and believers (which, I might add, are cherrypicked, rather than the DM-selected thralls that you would normally get), keeping his powers going with a Font of Power supplemented by Temporal Reiteration. I could stop there, not even mentioning the other tricks he uses, and it would be enough. This is quite simply beyond the level of power you could reasonably expect to use in the vast majority of games.

There are two types of TO as I see it.

1. TO where your character is so powerful it would be pointless to play him in a normal game.

2. TO where certain tricks make it impossible to play in a normal game...like CoP (because the DM is not omniscient for one).

Azrael is guilty of #1 but he could still theoretically be played in a normal game. What Azrael doesn't do is rely on TO like #2 in order to be really powerful...you know, like those 99% of 20th level wizards you claim Azrael is no better than do.



As for the rest of it. I won't even bother to comment on. Fallen Angle, you clearly don't understand the points I was trying to make and I don't have the time or energy to explain it to you. You're logic is terribly flawed and I cannot argue against people that have flawed logic because no matter what I say they will use said logic to pervert the meanings of things.

Oh, and BTW, I'm in graduate school and I have a perfect 4.0 GPA (which is rather difficult to accomplish, even in undergrad), so unless you are at least on the same level of academia as I (which you may be) don't fucking talk to me about what you think you know. The reality is, I'm excelling at the real thing, and even if you are on the same level or higher, I think my 4.0 GPA proves I know what I'm talking about. Also, I never claimed my method was identical to academia, I merely said that I use a few similar devices, such as giving proper appropriation. I am well aware that this type of discourse is unworthy of academic publishing, or even a term paper...thank you.


As for the rest of what Boz said...some better arguments than angle, but you also fail to grasp a few of the major points I was making (I'm not going to explain them again, I'm sure someone like Kell gets them), or acknowledge I was correct about them. Not to mention you clearly showed (see above quotes) that you have a knack for "selective quoting" in order to twist my statements and make yourself appear more correct.


The best POSSIBLE response for you now would be: "This conversation has degraded to immature name calling. Regardless of who started it, I will end it." Then stop making long personal responses to anyone. For any reason. Ideally you could go rework the original post, which several people have said was aggressive and confusing. On the other hand, if you don't care about people's opinion on him then you could ask an admin to close the topic and make space on the front page for other posts.

Thank you for your time.

You're right fallen, I should do that...oh wait...whats this...


Ignoring all that nonsense which continues to bash my character....someone has to be the bigger man and end this flamewar before it gets any larger...this is obviously some large subjective interpretation error about my demeanor and motives.

I tried to do that a while ago...did anyone listen...no.




I'm done with this...unless you have any constructive criticism that will help the character (and I did ask for help a while ago) I wont respond to these posts. I have real things to do with my time, like study in order to maintain my perfect GPA.


X-Codes

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #233 on: September 30, 2010, 05:15:09 PM »
I'm done with this...unless you have any constructive criticism that will help the character (and I did ask for help a while ago) I wont respond to these posts. I have real things to do with my time, like study in order to maintain my perfect GPA.


"K bye! :D"

Bozwevial

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #234 on: September 30, 2010, 05:37:53 PM »
Your "at least I'm pretty sure I did" doesn't matter here. Even when I pointed out that no, you actually weren't the inventor, you ignored my argument and went on to say "but I did it with Linked Power." Which is either a blatant lie or proof that you didn't bother reading the thread I provided. How can you expect me to take you seriously if you're going to respond like that? And you say I use weaselly tricks? Your word choice there was strong, and even though you added the disclaimer "at least I'm pretty sure I did," you really put yourself on the line. It didn't take long at all to find evidence to the contrary, and you could have saved yourself a lot of embarrassment if you had done the research. Instead, you made yourself look as if a) you were deliberately ignorant or b) blatantly lying.

Those aren't the accepted definitions of TO. You could totally play Pun-Pun in a game, but he'd be so far beyond the power curve it would be pointless. So by your logic, since Pun-Pun, like Azrael, falls under your first definition but not the second, he's not a "TO character." (So does that make him fair game for use against Azrael?)

As for your perfect GPA, I fail to see what that has to do with the argument at hand. Your grades don't have any effect on Azrael, nor should they be cited as an excuse for not responding to arguments. Your "level of academia" (and by the way, I have a hard time believing someone with that caliber of academic standing would make petty grammatical mistakes like "you're logic is terribly flawed," not read an argument before making a rebuttal, make a claim when a quick Google search could prove him to be wrong, or start using his credentials as a way to put down his opponents) doesn't somehow make your build better.

I'm done with this...unless you have any constructive criticism that will help the character (and I did ask for help a while ago) I wont respond to these posts. I have real things to do with my time, like study in order to maintain my perfect GPA.
"K bye! :D"
What he said.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #235 on: September 30, 2010, 06:33:17 PM »
okay the last post about his gpa confirms it

he's trolling us guys

Bauglir

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #236 on: September 30, 2010, 09:45:01 PM »
okay the last post about his gpa confirms it

he's trolling us guys

This was probably all part of a social experiment in which we have been unwitting participants.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Lunaramblings

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #237 on: September 30, 2010, 11:02:06 PM »

More bolding for emphasis: This IS TO. Azrael is a Thrallherd with Thrallherd thralls and so on, Fusing himself with all his thralls and believers (which, I might add, are cherrypicked, rather than the DM-selected thralls that you would normally get), keeping his powers going with a Font of Power supplemented by Temporal Reiteration. I could stop there, not even mentioning the other tricks he uses, and it would be enough. This is quite simply beyond the level of power you could reasonably expect to use in the vast majority of games.

There are two types of TO as I see it.

1. TO where your character is so powerful it would be pointless to play him in a normal game.

2. TO where certain tricks make it impossible to play in a normal game...like CoP (because the DM is not omniscient for one).


Ok, so you are ignoring the fact that you have cherry picked your followers, thralls, etc. to a degree that is well beyond what is allowed by the rules, which were quoted for you. Since the thralls, followers, etc are what actually power your build, you are actually the exact definition of your second definition of TO. The DM is not obliged to give you whoever you want as a thrall or follower. And in fact, most would not. So, THEORETICALLY, if given the exact followers you wanted, Azrael could be quite powerful indeed. However, that is not a given. It is THEORY.

Damien_Wilacoth

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #238 on: September 30, 2010, 11:16:27 PM »
Since we're talking theory, couldn't Azrael retrain his believers'/thralls' levels to be what he needed?  Same with DCFS for their feats?  Wouldn't that solve the problem of not getting the exact levels he needed?

X-Codes

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Re: Azrael
« Reply #239 on: September 30, 2010, 11:28:02 PM »
Since we're talking theory, couldn't Azrael retrain his believers'/thralls' levels to be what he needed?  Same with DCFS for their feats?  Wouldn't that solve the problem of not getting the exact levels he needed?
Retraining levels and DCFS are both very TO concepts as well.