Recharge magic opinion

[RobbyPants]

I'm curious what your opinion is on the recharge magic variant from Unearthed Arcana.

I have read it over and have been considering using it. My general impression is that it will have increased bookkeeping, but hopefully not too much. It seems to slow down casters a bit in any given fight, but they can have many of these fights in a given day. Also, this seems like it would strengthen the party as a whole, because the casters could keep several buffs running continuously, as well as keep the party at full health out of battle.

So, has anyone tried it? What did you think? Did it help or hurt the game?

[Runestar]

There will be some spells which can be potentially game-breaking if allowed to interact with recharge magic as is.

For example, bull's str has a duration of 1 minute/lv, but a recharge duration of 5 minutes. So past 5th lv, you can keep it up 24/7. Which may or may not be what you intended.

Then there is the whole miracle every 1d6+1 rounds fiasco with shadowcraft mage.

But these seem more the exception than the norm. UA was spot on when they said that long duration buff spells tend to benefit more under this scheme, since you only need to cast them infrequently, as compared to damage spells, which you might require more often.

[Sunic_Flames]

Except that thinking you'll need damage spells is faulty.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, the Bull's Strength part had already occured to me.  Not only can you keep it up all the time at 5th level, but you can keep it on two people at once if you extend it (and blow a 3rd level slot).

As for shadowcraft mage, is that in Tome of Magic?  At this point I'm not using it, so I'm not hugely worried about that combo.

Still, it seems that having intermitent access to your upper level spells would hurt a caster during a combat.  Does this seem to be an issue, or do other standing buffs make up for this?

[Prime32]

As for shadowcraft mage, is that in Tome of Magic?  At this point I'm not using it, so I'm not hugely worried about that combo.

It's in Races of Stone, and there are builds that let you spontaneously cast any spell as with a 100% real version of shadow conjuration.

[RobbyPants]

One thing I thought of, how would reserve feats work with this?  It seems the easiest route is it works if you have that level spell slot open.

[Chemus]

Why not do what sirperry and I have done in our homebrew 'DnD pi' version: give the spells a mana (read: spellpoints) cost and the spellcasters a certain amount of mana that they can get back by resting for 15 minutes to an hour? We've only tested it in a limited fashion, but it seems clean.

[RobbyPants]

Actually, I did something like that back a while ago, but ti got a bit complicated.  The basic idea was to dole out less SP, to limit what a caster could do in a short time, but let it rechage 25% of their max per hour.  That way, they'd be full within four hours.  It was an odd attempt at somethine along the lines of per-encounter (as they'd fill up four times per day during their waking hours).  In the end, it seemed like too much work.

Also, converting vancian casting into SP can be problematic.  As it's currently writen in UA, it makes crappy direct damage suck even worse.  Plus, it really gives casters a chance to go nova.  At least, that's how it worked the one time I tried using it.

[Chemus]

We've rewritten many of the PHB spells. Not heavily in most cases, but...we changed many durations, and flattened out most spell ranges to 50' per level.
Also our system removes heighten and automatic caster level adjustments; you pay for better effects, and saves are dependent upon mana spent.

Base costs are (spell level x2)-1, 0-level spells are free.

Wiz's get 3 mana per level plus int mod, cleric and druid get 2 mana per level plus wis mod, bard, paladin and ranger get 1 mana per level plus cha (we're considering int) for brd, wis for pal/rgr. You get your level in mana back per 15 min. rest (considering adding casting stat mod...maybe)

We've played a little this way, and it was fun and had very little extraneous bookkeeping.

It's my opinion that straight recharge would be a pain, but I have no direct experience.

[RobbyPants]

It's my opinion that straight recharge would be a pain, but I have no direct experience.

That's what I'm worried about.  I guess we'll have to see how painful it is if we try it out.

[ZeroSpace]

One thing I might be inclined to include is some sort of penalty system for casting, where the longer you go without rest, the harder it get's to cast. I looked at those alt rules, and they mention nothing to that extent. I'd say after point X, where X is however long you deem necessary, you must start making Concentration checks to fire off the spell.

Don't have anything to say about Bull's Strength cheese. I suppose you could tweak the recharge time, but that might be seen as nerfing it too hard.

Overall, I like the concept, but it does need some refinement.

Also, thanks to whoever gave me the Gamer-fu point.

[RobbyPants]

Don't have anything to say about Bull's Strength cheese. I suppose you could tweak the recharge time, but that might be seen as nerfing it too hard.

I guess I'm not that worried about it.  I suppose it does negate the need for a 16,000 gp item.  If I were to nerf it, I would probably just increase the time to 30 minutes.  Although, all that might do is make the party sit on their butts for twenty minutes at a time while they wait to cast it again.

[Stratovarius]

Well, the easiest way to prevent something like that is adjust the recharge time so it does not begin until the spell's effect has resolved and the spell has ended. It's more limiting, but the Wizard isn't exactly known for being a weakling in the first place.

[ZeroSpace]

Well, the easiest way to prevent something like that is adjust the recharge time so it does not begin until the spell's effect has resolved and the spell has ended.

That does sounds like a decent fix, though it would require some testing. Of course, with more meleers in a group, you would need to get more creative with buffing. Probably the best solution would be to put the players on a much stricter schedule on the odd occasion. Sure, the wizard CAN cast Bull's Strength all he wants, but he might not have the oppurtunity.

In general, I feel recharge magic is a step in the right direction. Among other things, it keeps casters from Nova-ing.

[RobbyPants]

In general, I feel recharge magic is a step in the right direction. Among other things, it keeps casters from Nova-ing.

I got to test it out as a 1st level conjurer today and had a lot of fun.

[Chemus]

RobbyPants, what is your ultimate goal from using recharge? Recharging spellpoints is, obviously, my fix if you want nova capabilty, w/o being tied to spells per day. The 'rest 15 mins to get all your spellpoints' is what seems to me to be good; it's low bookkeeping. Just have a limited spellpoints pool.

However, what are you really looking to get out of it?

[Orion]

At first glance, it looks like a horrendous pain in the bum. Keeping track of how long ago you cast X and Y spells would break my brain, very quickly, and as a DM, I just wouldn't trust players to not fudge it. Usually, the fudging would be quite innocent, I'm sure, but still. This is one of those systems that I think is unconsciously designed for a computer, which could keep track of your recharge automatically, as opposed to vancian spell-casting which, despite how counter-intuitive it is, works really easily at the table: write down a bunch of spells, cross them off as you cast them.

Perhaps there's a cleaner way to do a recharge cycle that doesn't involve keeping track of every spell and having an individual recharge time. How about doing it by school or something like that, instead of individually, and then linking the recharge time to the casting time? That saves a lot of headaches and makes it easier to convert. Also, it means that, generally speaking, you're waiting around to recharge a particular kind of spell. So if you blow your wad early on a big whizz-bang damage spell (invocation), you can't cast anything like that for a while, but you can toss around some buffs (alteration) and some protection (abjuration) while you're waiting for your damage spells to come back.

That's just off the top of my head, and of course it would have to be play-tested, but it might make it simpler and less powerful, but retain that sense of inexhaustible power that the recharge cycle creates.

Anyone know of a D&D variant of Shadowrun's spell fatigue rules? Basically, in that system, you roll something like a saving throw every time you cast a spell, and if you fail the roll, you take their equivalent of non-lethal damage (penalties to hit/damage/skills/etc.), and your subsequent saving throws to cast are also penalised. So it naturally creates a system in which, if you blow the wad on a huge spell, you can actually render yourself unconscious because you expend to much of your vital/spiritual energies.

[RobbyPants]

RobbyPants, what is your ultimate goal from using recharge? Recharging spellpoints is, obviously, my fix if you want nova capabilty, w/o being tied to spells per day. The 'rest 15 mins to get all your spellpoints' is what seems to me to be good; it's low bookkeeping. Just have a limited spellpoints pool.

However, what are you really looking to get out of it?

Well, one thing I like about it is that it's a single, contained system in a published book (making it easier for several people to use it and to have already heard about it).  I actually like the fact that it reduces the nova capability.  It seems if the caster isn't using expendable items to cast on rounds when he couldn't, this system slows him down in any given combat.  However, each combat, he gets to start fresh, giving you the ability to do lots during a single day.

I just played my conjurer for the second time yesterday and I had a lot of fun with it.

At first glance, it looks like a horrendous pain in the bum. Keeping track of how long ago you cast X and Y spells would break my brain, very quickly, and as a DM, I just wouldn't trust players to not fudge it. Usually, the fudging would be quite innocent, I'm sure, but still.

Well, the cheating isn't really an issue in this case.  For now, my friend's running a game and I'm playing.  The two of us are pretty much on the same page as for gaming styles and views.  I supposed I might be worried if gaming with stangers.  Still, it's not that hard to cheat using the standard vancian casting either.  If the DM isn't also tracking how many spells have been cast that day, how does he know the player didn't add a few?  For that matter, the player could quickly swap one prepared spell for another.  I don't think this system is any more suceptible to cheating than any other facet of D&D.

This is one of those systems that I think is unconsciously designed for a computer, which could keep track of your recharge automatically, as opposed to vancian spell-casting which, despite how counter-intuitive it is, works really easily at the table: write down a bunch of spells, cross them off as you cast them.

I agree that it would be easier if it were somehow automated.  It is a bit of bookwork.

Perhaps there's a cleaner way to do a recharge cycle that doesn't involve keeping track of every spell and having an individual recharge time. How about doing it by school or something like that, instead of individually, and then linking the recharge time to the casting time?

Actually, it's broken up by spell level, not each individual spell.  If the spell has a general recharge time (which most spells cast in combat do), then you have to wait so many rounds before being able to cast another spell of that level, not the specific spell.  So basically, I use a scrap sheet of paper for recording things that change often (HP, money, crossbow bolts, etc...).  All I do, is write down each spell level I can cast, and if I cast a spell of that level, I roll the recharge time and write it down.  Each round, I still have to remember to drop the number by one, but I'm only doing it by spell level, not every spell I prepared that day.

Specific recharge time spells work differently, but they're on the order of minutes or hours, not rounds, so that's easier to keep track of.

[Orion]

You have to roll the recharge time? I missed that bit.

Gah. I'm out. That's way, way, way too much of annoyance for my tastes. I'd prefer something like Shadowrun's fatigue system (or whatever it's called). But that's a subject for another thread.