Author Topic: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?  (Read 20584 times)

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katans

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2008, 05:33:55 PM »
@andy: You know, I played this deck for a long, long time and fine-tuned it against a nice amount of various strategies. I don't say I could beat you for sure, but I say you shouldn't bet on beating me anytime. Propaganda can be a real pain in the back (two of them even more so...) against weenie games, and I have the counterspells to ensure the Propaganda will stay in play. Did I mention Wall of Tears?

Eldariel

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2008, 11:51:57 PM »
@OP: The game has 5 official constructed formats. Not one of them contains some deck that's just categorically superior to every other, so the statement that you could "just spend a ton of money on expensive cards and win" is simply false and heavily misinformed. Further, all of the official formats (with the possible exception of Vintage and Block) have open enough cardpools that you can do well against established decks with your own creations as long as you know what you're doing.

The only effect internet had on the game is it rose the level of play; people play better decks and people play better technically. Also thanks to internet, the advancement of deck construction theories has been far more rapid than it would have otherwise been, resulting in people actually knowing how to build decks and thus having a real chance at succeeding with their own creations. Also, you can play online for free with programs if you don't feel like buying expensive cards. Also, you can win (just not have the absolute best win chance) perfectly well with budget creations poised to attack the metagame.


So:
-The internet improved the decks, the players and the game (and made it possible for the less skilled deckbuilders to both, get help with deck construction and to find decks others have perfected if they like the 'playing'-part more than the deck construction)

-You can succeed with your own creations even on international stages in any format.

-You don't need money to win, only to optimize the every last bit out of your chances. Also, thanks to people borrowing cards a lot and online leagues playing with software that doesn't require you to pay for cards, you can construct just about any deck in the more limited formats with relatively small costs as long as you actively strive for it.

-This all applies to casual playing too as long as you follow restrictions/bannings of some official format (there're lots of unofficial ones available too geared towards casual players looking for different game, including formats only allowing cheap cards (Pauper and Peasant)).

AndyJames

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2008, 02:28:36 AM »
It can't because of mana efficiency and instants. I can cast my stuff at the end of your go, tap you out, untap, draw, and have a second go at you while you are still tapped.

Thing is, counterspells are good if the other guy can't kill you by round 3 or so. But Red burn would have done a massive amount of direct damage to you by then. It only needs a bit more to kill you outright. With untap-burn, don't forget that Red can also counter your Counterspells, and it only cost them a Red mana to do so over your 2 Blues. Draw-Go actually puts a Blue player at a disadvantage vs fast Burn Red as it fills the Red player's hand with instant, high efficiency burns that a Blue player would have a hard time countering all the time. That is, unless you somehow survive until the late game, when you have Islands to Africa. Then Blue just wins.

Blue Control would be very nasty vs Weenie decks. Of that I have no doubt. But it is not 100% effective against them, either. If your anti-creature defenses doesn't come out fast enough and in sufficient quantities, you will just be swarmed under by a lot of little guys. Trust me, I have played against a lot of Blue players (just practically everyone but me in my group of about 10 guys played Blue of one stripe or another). Counterpost, Draw-Go, Blue-Black Mill, Palinchron, Fire and Ice, Counter-Drain, you name it, I have run against it.

None of the decks are 100%, of course. No decks are as luck still has a big say in things. But Red burn and Sligh does have the best chance against all decks (like in tournament play). Their main weakness is against Life Drain decks, but even then, it is a case of quickdraw.

Eldariel

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2008, 03:02:28 AM »
Do you always want to beat mono-blue control? There's a tool for that: Reset High Tide. A combo-deck built around stack control, the Storm-mechanic and long game superiority, it's not going to lose to a control-deck ever. That simply doesn't happen (unless the pilot is dumb; I've beaten it twice with MUC simply because my opponent tried to win too soon). Also, since it's capable of winning by turn 4 while still playing Remand and Force of Will, it can deal with most aggro-decks as they simply don't tend to win fast enough through the disruption, and most combo-decks don't want to see the counters. The Achilles' Heel is of course Aggro/Control, which is able to establish a fast clock to force High Tide to try to win faster than it would want to, and then disrupt the combo-deck with a few counters; anything else tends to be a dog vs. Tide though. Here's a n example of the modern lists:

4 High Tide
2 Peek
2 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Brain Freeze
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
1 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

Sideboard
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Twincast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Evacuation
4 Hydroblast
4 Disrupt


Basically, against mono-blue control you play their game better than they do. At any end of turn, you can start to combo off, force the opponent to counter some spells, respond with more combo-spells and so on. And even if they do manage to counter everything you've got (which is unlikely since your hand consists of 7 threats and you've taken your time playing enough lands to not need mana acceleration), you simply cast Brain Freeze that copies itself for every spell (theirs and yours!) played this turn; even if they counter the original, they have all the copies to deal with. This mills most of their library. Then you just repeat the process if they didn't die the first time. Basically, it has absolute strategic superiority over all control-decks.


As for aggressive red having the best chance against all decks, that's not true; aggressive red loses to fast combo-decks every time. Decks that win 1-2 turns faster than the red deck are simply something the red deck cannot race and red doesn't offer effective disruption to slow the opposing decks down. Ultimately, the best choice to fight basically anything is an efficient aggro-control deck with heavy tempo- and mana denial tools. It has trumps against aggressive beatdown decks in large creatures (that red just can't burn away without wasting cards; heaven forbid the second burn-spell gets countered), removal and tempo counters (they force opponent to either play slower or to lose spells; either way they're on the losing end of the bargain), trumps against control in mana disruption and burn-spells, and trumps against combo in counters, fast clock and specific trump cards. In the mirror, the mana disruption keeps it at least even.

AndyJames

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2008, 07:41:36 AM »
Keep in mind that I only played until Invasion, so the more modern cards are unknowns to me. WotC could have come up with something that allowed the later decks to deal with Type I burn, but back in the days I played, fast burn is the only effective counter to Blue control (except for another Blue control). Like I said, when you are playing against guys with the complete set of top 10 Magic cards (Moxes, Black Lotus, etc.), chances are your control and combo decks won't get a chance to do off, and your big fatties won't make it. The only other one I can think of that would be effective is a big fatty deck utilising that Recurring Nightmare nonsense.

BobismyRhino

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2008, 07:54:45 AM »
Ignoring all of your amazingly built decks... I want to make a horsey deck! I've got a Nightmare and 4 Timbermares...

I need more cards. Clearly, I'd get more Nightmares (although, if I'm using a multicolored deck, Nightmares wouldn't work so well for me since I'd naturally have less Swamps out-which determines their power and defense).

I'm going to get some Pegasuses? Pegasi? I hate english. I have no idea what the plural of that word is. But anyways... Do you guys know of any other horse-like cards?  :D

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AndyJames

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2008, 08:10:06 AM »
There is a Pegasus Mountaintop thing that allows you to put a 1/1 pegasus token into play. I can't remember exactly what it was called now.

If you like cute critters, take a look at the giant squirrel in Might of Oaks :D

Runestar

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2008, 09:58:04 AM »
Horses....weatherlight has this thundermare - 6 mana, 5/5, haste, taps all creatures when it comes into play.
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Eldariel

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2008, 11:37:45 AM »
You could make a Pegasus-deck, an Unicorn-deck or a Griffin-deck under those limitations. There's this Sacred Mesa that's a fairly awesome way to build and army of Pegasi. The card Andy is probably thinking is Pegasus Refuge; I personally prefer Mesa though. Then there's Pegasus Stampede, Plated Pegasus, Armored Pegasus, Pegasus Charger and Mesa Pegasus (with all the convoluted Banding-rules). Colours would be hard if you try to include all you want (Nightmare wants TONS of swamps, Timbermare costs GG and Pegasi want lots of white), but by limiting yourself to one part or the other of the idea, you could probably pull it off. One thing; all the mentioned tribes - Unicorns, Pegasi and Griffins - are mostly white.

@Andy: The biggest change in Vintage specifically is that they printed the Storm-mechanic I was talking about, which allows combo-decks to deal with pure control. That changed things a lot. Also, Fact or Fiction got restricted cutting MUC down in size, and there was a large number of unrestrictions (Mishra's Workshop, for example, spawning a whole slew of archetypes built around Artifact Lock Pieces). This was all 5 years ago or so. But yea, back when you played, the decks I saw used against MUC were Suicide Black (that turn 1 Hypno does kick MUC around the building if no Force is forthcoming), Green Stompy and indeed Sligh. Modern T1 meta is probably Oath of Druids, Workshop Control, Mana Drain-decks, Tendrils-combo and maybe some aggressive red decks built to destroy artifacts and screw manabases (Blood Moon)

BobismyRhino

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2008, 11:48:14 AM »
You could make a Pegasus-deck, an Unicorn-deck or a Griffin-deck under those limitations. There's this Sacred Mesa that's a fairly awesome way to build and army of Pegasi. The card Andy is probably thinking is Pegasus Refuge; I personally prefer Mesa though. Then there's Pegasus Stampede, Plated Pegasus, Armored Pegasus, Pegasus Charger and Mesa Pegasus (with all the convoluted Banding-rules). Colours would be hard if you try to include all you want (Nightmare wants TONS of swamps, Timbermare costs GG and Pegasi want lots of white), but by limiting yourself to one part or the other of the idea, you could probably pull it off. One thing; all the mentioned tribes - Unicorns, Pegasi and Griffins - are mostly white.

Yeah... I was thinking about that. I was wondering how the hell I'd pull off a deck like that... lots of black, white, and green...
I'd have a ton of different colored mana... But then I could add 4 Scuttlemutts, which give me any color of mana...
Bleh. I would have to cut it down to two colors (probably green and white) just so that my horses were, you know, formidable. A 1/1 Nightmare doesn't really do much for me. >.>;;   

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Eldariel

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2008, 12:05:06 PM »
You could build a 3-colour version of it, but that would require MONEY. There's this land called Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth that makes all lands in game count as Swamps; that allows everything to produce black AND keeps your Nightmare in full size (just get 3-4 of those). Then you could play some green cards that find non-basic lands (Sylvan Scrying, for example) to get the Urborg when you need it and things would work out just fine. Then some green/white duallands and you'd be producing all the colored mana you'd need. But as I said, it would be relatively expensive to try and pull that off as you would NEED to get some of the more powerful duallands to make it all work out and duallands are among the most expensive cards to buy from thirdparty vendors in Magic. So the base-white deck splashing quite a bit of green for Timbermare (and some other cards too; no point splashing just for one card) is probably your best bet.

AndyJames

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2008, 12:24:58 PM »
LoL! No way I am getting back into that game, Eladriel :P I actually made some money during the time I played it (tournaments and some of the cards went up in value, and others I got cheap). Besides, it is a WotC product, and WotC is high on my shitlist at the moment ;)

One thing I like about the little flying 1/1 White Pegasi is the fact that I can slap on Crusades, Angelic Hymns, Serra's Blessing and a couple of other global enchantments on them. Suddenly, that 1/1 flyer becomes a 5/5 first striking flyer that does not tap to attack plus other fun stuff :D
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 12:27:22 PM by AndyJames »

Callix

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2008, 03:28:46 PM »
On modern Vintage: There's also a new kid on the block: Hulk Flash. It runs Flash and Protean Hulk, which lets you search out a bunch of small creatures from your deck. These are used to set up an infinite recursion combo with a CIP effect that either kills or mills your opponent. Also, since it's blue, it can run Force of Will and Remand. It's famous for its Turn-Zero win, comboing off at the beginning of its opponent's first upkeep while on the draw.

On the Pegasus Deck: It doesn't run Timbermare, but Sacred Mesa is a favoured finisher in a lot of Teferi's Moat control decks. Magus of the Moat can fill the same niche, stopping faster decks from squashing you while your pegasi run all over them in the air. Just pack a lot of protective spells.
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Eldariel

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2008, 10:23:25 PM »
On modern Vintage: There's also a new kid on the block: Hulk Flash. It runs Flash and Protean Hulk, which lets you search out a bunch of small creatures from your deck. These are used to set up an infinite recursion combo with a CIP effect that either kills or mills your opponent. Also, since it's blue, it can run Force of Will and Remand. It's famous for its Turn-Zero win, comboing off at the beginning of its opponent's first upkeep while on the draw.

The competitive version doesn't play Gemstone Caverns though so it can't pull that off. The second counter is Pact of Negation actually; free counter with no drawbacks the turn you try to go off. However, Flash just got restricted to 1-of copy per deck, so Hulk Flash is effectively unplayable. Also, they restricted Brainstorm, Gush (after unrestricting it for 3 months, go figure), Ponder and so on, heavily neutering blue, so Vintage is probably more about Bazaars and Workshops now than blue spells Mana Drains. Even Mountains may win.

Judging Eagle

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2008, 10:04:45 PM »
Bobismyrhino,

When building decks, the best way to go about doing so is to find one card that you like and would want to win with.


Several years ago at a con I picked up a sealed box of Torment boosters for some price that seemed reasonable.

Aside from getting a lot of foils and all of the rares of the series, there was one rare that really stood out to me; Mortal Combat (honestly, I don't know if this is worth anything or not, the box only had one in all of the boosters that I opened, but it only had one of each of the other rares that I got from that box, so I'm sure that's standard).

I liked the card, I knew that it was awesome, then I built a deck that would make me win with it.

Most of the deck was made up of black Mercenary cards (where 'higher up' mercs could be tapped to bring more mercs with converted costs of 3 or 2 or less straight into play) and white Rebel cards (just like the mercs, only white) to get me both blockers and creatures to fill my graveyard.

The rest of the deck was made up of a few cards that would either 1) find Mortal combat, so that I could put it into play or 2) Keep me from losing it permanently (by digging through my graveyard for a card etc.).

That was one of the decks that that box let me build; the other was the Nightmare Horror deck that removed enemy things from play, an other was more of a way to use all of my previously owned Zombie cards (the Zombie "leader" card from Torment that let you give zombies swampwalk and make target lands into swamps); plus synergize with other cards that I had owned from before.

Net-decking is good, but people that only net deck will be at a loss when someone shows up with a deck that they don't know.
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Talen Lee

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2008, 02:14:03 AM »
Quote
Net-decking is good, but people that only net deck will be at a loss when someone shows up with a deck that they don't know.
Nonsense.

Netdecking is a way to look at decks you didn't design yourself. Netdeckers by definition have the skills to deduce a deck by looking at it, and don't approach games the only way they themselves would approach them.

BobismyRhino

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2008, 06:09:12 AM »
Yeah, one thing I've noticed as I've played more is that when you play against other people in a tournament, they already know you're next move after you've put down like, 2 cards. It's so damn annoying.
I do not have the drive nor do I have the attention span to sit down and figure out different types of decks and how to use them. I'd improve a ton if I did, but I've got other important things to do... Usually.

It makes the game entirely frustrating for lazy people like me who just want to fuck around with Creature-laden decks.

 


People usually think that I've lost my mind. I haven't lost it, I know exactly where it is: the gutter.

My body is a temple. That is why I make chocolate sacrifices in it every day.

Callix

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2008, 09:19:53 AM »
Yeah, one thing I've noticed as I've played more is that when you play against other people in a tournament, they already know you're next move after you've put down like, 2 cards. It's so damn annoying.
I do not have the drive nor do I have the attention span to sit down and figure out different types of decks and how to use them. I'd improve a ton if I did, but I've got other important things to do... Usually.

It makes the game entirely frustrating for lazy people like me who just want to fuck around with Creature-laden decks.
You should have seen my Merfolk deck. I ran a total of about six noncreature spells, but it could come out of the blocks fast enough to put anyone on the defensive. For that matter, my Kithkin one only uses eight spelss that don't either make creatures or pump them. And there's always that great moment when your oddball card choices just win you the game. For example, I can't afford Mirrorwaeve for the deck, so I use a couple of Surge of Thoughtweft. It's a much worse card in general, but a lot of players dismiss a kithkin deck with two mana open, where they'd be wary of four. And sometimes, that lets you win games.
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Talen Lee

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2008, 02:35:27 PM »
There's no harm in fucking around. I fuck around. I made a writing career of just fucking around. Casual players need to learn there's nothing wrong with someone else being better than you. What's more important, however, is for the pros to realise that casual players actually generate the money in Magic.

That said, don't go to tournaments. Get some friends and form a casual circle. Hell, I wish I could play modo with friends instead of with nobodies.

AndyJames

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Re: Magic the Gathering: Does this ruin the game?
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2008, 11:58:28 PM »
Magic is definitely more fun with friends than in tournament. You get a lot of nasty trashtalkers (as opposed to funny, just-for-kicks ones) in tournament play, at least around these parts, and you get people that will scream "ref!" at the drop of a hat hoping that they will somehow get an advantage over ths smallest of things. Bloody annoying.

With friends it I find that I tend to play the more "fun" decks as opposed to my "killer" decks that I use in tournament play. The Eradimate deck is a fun deck. Sure, it can go off in Round 2, but it requires 6 cards to do so (Eradicate, Dark Ritual, Elf or Sol Ring or some form of mana acceleration, Animate Land, Forest, Swamp). I have a bunch of other theme decks that saw play more regularly than the tournament decks. Weak as heck (including a White-Green pile-as-many-enchants-on-a-creature-as-you-can deck), but fun.