Author Topic: Help me with a thought experiment on Archivist & Divine classes here...  (Read 4993 times)

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Gavinfoxx

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Miracle to get whatever spell you need? Just a thought. Ignoring that though, I would probaly do custom items, to avoid possibly not having the spell.

Yea, I guess Miracle would open up all items that needed a particular spell.  So ignoring THAT, what common types of items that people REALLY like here would they not be able to make? And what sorts of things that *add specific spells known to different lists* would help mitigate that?

And, in general, if a DM said: "in my game the Archivist can have access to the Cleric, Cleric Domains, Adept, Druid, Shugenja, Divine Bard, Paladin and alignment based Paladin variants, Mystic Ranger, and spells added by substitution levels, or class variants for those classes, and any prestige class for any of these that advances existing divine spellcasting and adds specific, itemized spells known outside of the normal lists of the divine spellcasting abilities of classes, but nothing else, including any of the tricks that these classes have to know or cast 'any' wizard or sorcerer spells, or any of the prestige classes that do rapid spell list advancement with their own specific list.  The Archivist specifically only has access to spells itemized as divine in the aforementioned ways."  What would that do to the Archivist's power and capability of breaking the game? How about crafting ability? How early could they get some obscure spells?  That's a BROADER list than this thought experiment does, which is why I wanted to do the NARROWER version of the thought experiment, basically choosing a deity and alignment and giving the archivist access to everything that one particular divine character can add to that, and be able to use that for crafting and party support.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 01:35:54 AM by Gavinfoxx »
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JohnnyMayHymn

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(bear with me i wrote this like 8 posts ago)
i vote for the druid if he takes planar shepherd, to wildshape into elementals and outsiders
and get their ex, su and sp abilities - and some might argue spellcasting(because all abilities are ex, su or sp - so spellcasting has to be one of those)

shavarath - can wildshape into most demons, devils and archons

depending on if the "good" team is working against the "evil" team or if members of both teams are against every1..
the druid can use the planar shepherd's plane shift ability to take his entire group to another plane, where there IS civilization- archivist can load up on spells, others can buy items, etc...

region of dreams - inevitably SOMEONE will dream about divine scrolls or texts, so the archivist might frequent trips with the druid looking for these - not to mention the 10:1 time ratio inside planar bubble

if planeshift is not allowed, or the group consists of the first 8 people ever then the planar shepherd can just pick any plane with outsiders who can grant wishes = free wishes for the party

Xoriat also has pseudonatural versions of all creatures

there must be a way for archivist to get acess to all divine spells + most arcane spells               
and there's always Pazuzu...
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Gavinfoxx

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Looking at the SRD, there are many items that require spells that this party doesn't have... so, does anyone AT ALL have access to...

Shield?
Limited Wish?
Spell Turning?
Disintegrate?
Magic Missile?
Wall of Force?
Telekinesis?
Fireball?
Spell Turning?
Mage's Disjunction?
Levitate?
Fabricate?
Secret Chest?
Resilient Sphere?
Mage Armor?
Overland Flight?
Permanency?
Knock?
Flesh to Stone?
Shrink Item?
Prismatic Spray?
Mage's Magnificent Mansion?
Grasping Hand?
Clenched Fist?
Imprisonment?
Clone?
Keen Edge?
Disintegrate?

Because it looks like there will be far, far, far fewer wondrous items in the world, and instead people would be making RUNES with the Runecaster class's bonuses to have things that remotely act like these dozens and dozens of crazy wondrous items.

Also going by the SRD, for the Bard to be able to help 100% by allowing srd items to be made by the archivist, he would have to take: Dancing Lights, Disguise Self, Grease, Haste, Blink, Charm Monster, Feather Fall, See Invisibility, Pyrotechnics, Mass Charm Monster, Shout, Confusion, Secret Page, Lesser Confusion, Major Image, Shout, Displacement, Fear, Glitterdust, Fear, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Mage Hand, Suggestion, Fox's Cunning, Ghost Sound, Blur, Rainbow Pattern, and Animate Rope... which I think is blatantly impossible for him to take all of them!  Is there a bard variant that prepares their spells ahead of time and gets access to the entire list?  Presumably the bard would have to learn spells, let the archivist scribe them, and then trade out spells for different ones to get the most of his list!  At least the Adept helps some, he adds these spells as divine spells to the world: Invisibility, Burning Hands, Sleep, Scorching Ray, Web, Lightning Bolt, Minor Creation, Polymorph, and Major Creation.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 02:35:04 AM by Gavinfoxx »
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Gavinfoxx

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(bear with me i wrote this like 8 posts ago)
i vote for the druid if he takes planar shepherd, to wildshape into elementals and outsiders
and get their ex, su and sp abilities - and some might argue spellcasting(because all abilities are ex, su or sp - so spellcasting has to be one of those)

shavarath - can wildshape into most demons, devils and archons

depending on if the "good" team is working against the "evil" team or if members of both teams are against every1..
the druid can use the planar shepherd's plane shift ability to take his entire group to another plane, where there IS civilization- archivist can load up on spells, others can buy items, etc...

region of dreams - inevitably SOMEONE will dream about divine scrolls or texts, so the archivist might frequent trips with the druid looking for these - not to mention the 10:1 time ratio inside planar bubble

if planeshift is not allowed, or the group consists of the first 8 people ever then the planar shepherd can just pick any plane with outsiders who can grant wishes = free wishes for the party

Xoriat also has pseudonatural versions of all creatures

there must be a way for archivist to get acess to all divine spells + most arcane spells               
and there's always Pazuzu...

Lots of good ideas, but mostly describing how to get around limitations, which, while useful and much of what I asked for, doesn't help with the other parts of my questions -- trying to figure out what limitations these ARE, and how they affect the world.  I thank you, though, for what you said!

Anyway, let's say the Shepherd DOES get access to arcane spellcasting through...crazy shepherd tricks. While that would help with making the first item that requires that spell, but since the Archivist couldn't scribe it (it's arcane! or otherwise Not Divine!) it wouldn't really help later people, and also would make an issue with that very vague and ill defined idea I had of basically making divine spellcasting the only kind of spellcasting in the world after them, and items that they could have made the only findable items in the setting, and getting rid of large numbers of potential magical items by figuring out what this group or one like it could and couldn't have made.  And let's presume that plane shifting to another plane would just let them go talk to their god in his court, who would basically answer questions about their reason for being, like, the only eight people in the world as far as they know that aren't a monster or goblin or something.  And I *guess* someone taking the lucid dreaming or autohypnosis skill, and using that to dream up divine scrolls for the archivist, and then someone ELSE doing that dreamscape thing to go acquire them MIGHT work, I don't really know what that would allow them to get! Though I would probably want to limit that to something defineable, like "All the spells on the bard list that the bard didn't actually take". *pause* WAIT I JUST SOLVED THE BARD ISSUE, THANKS!
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Sohala

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Another fun tidbit, 2 level dip into Chameleon, with an archivist in the group, bam all spells known to man.

The Chameleon selects the feat Extra Spell everyday, learning spells as needed, archivist copies them down in their book.

Probably best with a cohort.
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Gavinfoxx

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What's the nature of the Chameleon spells? Arcane? Divine? One of the Neither categories?

EDIT: checked. Okay, Divine Focus, one of the 9th level spellcasting classes, and the Extra Spell feat.  That would presumably let the Chameleon use a spell from *any of his companions*, um, like the Archivist, since they are, for the purposes of this game, defining the spell lists of the world.  MAYBE also getting the domains of their god that they didn't have access to, but that could also be gotten in the Lucid Dreaming / Dreamscape / Some Dream Spell / Planar Shepherd trick... but it's still a good idea... gets them arcane spells for item creation, I guess. Make the only Carpet of flying in the world, woohoo!  But it still doesn't mesh with my (now more entrenched) idea of "if these guys win, divine magic is going to be the only magic the world has available, and they can't get spells from the other groups, there is to be no direct contact with them until the big fight" concept.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:29:22 AM by Gavinfoxx »
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JohnnyMayHymn

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just make a huge army of generations and generations and generations....of planar shepherds, that hang out on a timeless plane until the big fight!

i have more wishes than you so i win!

but wait, the evil guys have been reproducing too, and they're all going to summon pazuzu on the day of the fight, because at LEAST one of them made that knowledge check

but if the god thing doesn't like all those druids hanging out with him forever, he'll kick them out, then what?

the druids breed rabbits and awaken them! and train the rabbits to be planar shepherds!

no wait! the bad dudes can just save all the skeletons of their dead and raise them, then awaken their DEAD and have the dead make pazuzu wishes too!!

oh crap NE planar shepherds!         Evil wins again..... http://sadtrombone.com/

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Sohala

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What's the nature of the Chameleon spells? Arcane? Divine? One of the Neither categories?
Actually you have to ignore its spell casting, because it can't be used to qualify for feats, which is why I said dip.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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What's the nature of the Chameleon spells? Arcane? Divine? One of the Neither categories?
Actually you have to ignore its spell casting, because it can't be used to qualify for feats, which is why I said dip.
Well, yeah, but they're still divine or arcane, even if prestige classes and feats don't care about it.


Have you considered adding the homebrew Blue Mage class to the mix?
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Gavinfoxx

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Have you considered adding the homebrew Blue Mage class to the mix?

Yes actually.  Maybe in one of the evil groups, but I would like to stick to stuff that is non homebrewed... remember, thought experiment? Trying to figure out the ramifications of only divine magic existing, and only what PC's can get access to, and only Archivists being crafters, and only those crafting feats and that prestige class being available for crafting purposes, and only the spells that these characters could have as specifically enumerated divine spells being possible for scrolls in the game.
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ksbsnowowl

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What's the nature of the Chameleon spells? Arcane? Divine? One of the Neither categories?
Actually you have to ignore its spell casting, because it can't be used to qualify for feats, which is why I said dip.
Well, yeah, but they're still divine or arcane, even if prestige classes and feats don't care about it.
He's not talking about the Chameleon's casting at all.  He's only talking about its floating feat.

Be an archivist x/chameleon 2.  Each day spend your floating feat on Extra Spell, choosing a new and different spell each day.  Of course, this relies on the cheesy interpretation of Extra Spell, which some DM's nix.


Quote from: Sohala
But my choice, thinking long term here, cleric would get animal (shapechange), travel (teleport), renewal (PaO). That is looking at spells gained; some might go for certain devotions, or some other avenue.
I don't know the renewal domain, but Trickery is better.
The Trickery Domain is a pretty good one, if you can swing it for a nature deity.  It also gets Polymorph Any Object, in addition to Invisibility and Time Stop.

Several of the Druid order feats from the Eberron Campaign Setting can get you some additional spells that might otherwise be Wiz/Sor only.  I know that Gatekeeper Initiate and/or Moonspeaker Guardian gets invisibility, among others.

The only way I know to get Magic Missile as a divine spell is via the Nentyar Hunter prestige class from Unapproachable East.  I know you don't want self-granting casting PrC's, but that's the only way I know of to get that as divine.  It has several other good spells on its list, too.
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Force domain has Magic missile. At least according to Crystalkeep. The domain's in Complete Divine, but I think it was updated in SpC...

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I don't see any of the limitations:

By level 17 there should be any magic items, including scrolls, for any arcane spells up to level 7, and any divine spells up to level 8, because of miracle. Which means the following generations will know about all of these.

Of course, without actual arcane casters the REALISTIC argument is how they even KNOW about the arcane spells to duplicate. Essentially, Knowledge(Arcana) would have to be dropped from the game, or else the cloistered cleric is surely going to know that SOMEWHERE these spells exist.

I also don't see the limitation of only divine classes. While it's surely efficient to remain within the divine casting class, as long as you don't say that there IS NO arcane casting whatsoever, someone could start advancing in an arcane casting class, or even make a horrible theurge. While this means that evil will win with even less doubt, it certainly opens up arcane casting.

Any anyway, with a setup like this, evil definitely wins. They have persistent (greater) consumptive field, that's enough. They can also have persistent spell by level 1.

Gavinfoxx

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Okay. Let me try AGAIN. For the purposes of this campaign, THESE CHARACTERS are defining what spells ACTUALLY EXIST IN THE SETTING.  Something that merely allows you "access to another list" without specifically adding specific spells to your existing list DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. So while the feats that add spells to the druid list exist, the Nentyar Hunter wouldn't. And Miracle would work on spells previously defined to exist.  Make sense?  And while the foe groups theoretically allow other themed spells to exist, since all characters specifically get their spells from A SINGLE Deity whose champions (ie, the group) are *competing* with one of these foe groups to DEFINE the setting, that deity is not going to allow them to get access to spells FROM A COMPETING GROUP.  But those Eberron feats are fine, and EXACTLY the sort of thing I am looking for, as it works within the restrictions given, and adds specific spells to their existing list.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 06:54:26 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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So which initiate feat would match with that specific deity the most closely?  They can add some interesting spells available.  

If you allow for alternative source spell, some of the bloodline feats from dragon compendium are also interesting for supplying spells


Soverign archetypes from dragons of eberron can monkey-wrench in some spells as well.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 07:16:36 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Gavinfoxx

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So which initiate feat would match with that specific deity the most closely?  They can add some interesting spells available.  

Closest match? Initiate of Ehlonna from Dragon 342, which doesn't give them ANY spells the party didn't have access to.  So I am thinking trying to figure out which initiate feat that isn't an exact match which might work...

*Checks* I checked Realmshelps, and it LOOKS like these initiate feats MIGHT fit:

Initiate of Nature, PGtF
Initiate of Nobanion, CoV
Dderwydd Chymdeithas Initiate, Dragon 332
Greensinger Initiate, EbCS
Gatekeeper Initiate, EbCS
Warden Initiate, EbCS
Initiate of Obad-Hai, Dragon 342
Initiate of Ehlonna, Dragon 342
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 09:11:31 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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Gavinfoxx

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So looking at what spells the available options add... mostly, things add spells so the Bard doesn't HAVE to take them to get access to them before, say, Miracle, where the party finally has access to spells from things they didn't select.  I haven't decided if there is ANY way to get ahold of spells at level 8 through 9 or not...

What things add:

Cloistered Cleric
Erase, Identify, Unseen Servant
Fox's Cunning
Illusory Script, Secret Page, Tongues
Detect Scrying
Analyze Dweomer
Sequester
Vision
*Bard has some of these, but Cloistered Cleric means the bard doesn't have to take these spells

Animal, Celerity, Creation, Good, Life, Plant, Purification, Renewal, Sun, Travel, Water, and Weather

Animal Domain: Nothing not on druid or ranger list

Celerity Domain:
Expeditious Retreat so the bard doesn't have to take it
Blink, so the bard doesn't have to take it
Haste, so teh bard doesn't have to take it
Blur, so the bard doesnt have to take it
Improved Blink, so the bard doesn't have to take it
Time Stop <!!!

Creation Domain:
Pavilion of Grandeur
True Creation
Permanent Image so the bard doesn't have to take it
Major Creation
Minor Creation
Minor Image so the Bard doesnt have to take it

Good Domain: Holy Smite

Knowledge Domain: Detect Secret Doors so bard doesnt need to take it
Detect Thoughts so bard doesnt have to take it
Clairaudience/clairvoiyance so bard doesnt have to take it
Legend Lore so bard doesn't have to take it

Life Domain: Nothing

Plant Domain: opens up prestige classes, which maybe the Adept needs?

Purification Domain: Nothing

Renewal: Charm Person, so the bard doesn't have to take it
Polymorph any object
Freedom

Travel Domain: Fly
Dimension Door so the bard doesn't have to take it
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Phase Door

Water Domain
Cone of Cold
Acid Fog
Horrid Wilting

Weather (combine the cdiv and eb lists) Nothing

Hmmm... I'm thinking that perhaps, in order to make the Sentinel playable, just say, "That character is a Gestalt Sentinel / Good Domain Divine Adept that casts from a single, unified spell list, using the Adept spells per day, adding all Sentinel Spells and the Good Domain spells for spell levels 1-5 to the spells known to the Adept spellcasting progression, and gaining the power of the Good Domain." Would that work?

Also, there would be a universal removal of Evil spells from Team Good's list.  Also I edited the first post to clarify things!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 10:39:34 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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Gavinfoxx

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Argh, my brain won't let me leave this setting alone! Here's a list of weapons that would be considered 'simple' for this setting... what do you all think? If you'll notice, all of the simple weapons can be almost completely made out of normal wood with no problems..

Light Club 1d6, 20/x2, Bludgeoning, Light Weapon, 10' range increment when thrown, maximum 5 range increments
Club 1d8 20/x2 Bludgeoning, 1 handed, 10' range increment when thrown, maximum 5 range increments
Greatclub 1d10 20/x2 Bludgeoning, 2 handed
Shortstaff 1d6/1d6 20/x2 Bludgeoning, 2 Handed, Double Weapon
Longstaff 1d6 20/x2 Bludgeoning 2 handed, 10' Reach
Throwing Spear 1d6 20/x2 30' Range Increment, Piercing, 1 Handed, maximum 5 range increments, Can be thrown with an Atlatl*
Broad Spear 1d6, 20/x3, Slashing, 1 Handed
Longspear 1d8 20/x3 Piercing, 2 Handed, 10' Reach
Blowgun 1d3 20/x2, 10' range increment, maximum 5 range increments, piercing, fires blowgun needles, requires two hands to fire and reload, and a move action to reload.
Small Boomerang 1d4 damage, 20/x2, 20' range increment, Bludgeoning, 1 Handed, Ranged ONLY, returns on a miss, maximum 5 range increments
Large Boomerang 1d8 damage, 20/x2, 30' range increment, Bludgeoning, 1 Handed, Ranged ONLY, does not return on a miss, maximum 5 range increments

*Atlatl--improves thrown damage of a throwing spear to 1d8, 20/x3, increases range increment to 90', changes the 5 range increment cap to 10, atlatl adds a +2 to the character's effective strength for throwing the spear, as the character can use their existing strength more effectively. Requires a Move action to Reload a new Throwing Spear.

Note:  Rapid Reload works with an Atlatl and Blowgun.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 03:08:34 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: Help me with a thought experiment on Archivist & Divine classes here...
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2010, 07:01:33 PM »
So I've been looking at Shugenja.  They have a bunch of mutually exclusive options, and they are the *only* way to get the characters access to these spells in the setting.  Presumably, one of the "dream" spells or Miracle or talking to some of the planar folks in the setting will get the party access to the "un chosen" shugenja spells, which means that LATER in the setting, things like Fireball, Disjunction, and stuff WILL be available to Archivists, but the idea is kind of to limit the impact of  "spells the characters could've had but didn't choose, that the Archivist ends up putting in his spellbook for future generations" in the actual *gameplay*.  I'm definitely thinking of giving the deity the Air domain, and making the Shugenja an Air with Order of Spring Zephyr, because focused illusionist is a very very powerful option.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 07:04:34 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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