Okay. So a thought experiment has been bugging me for some time now. Lets say you have the following scenario, and are optimizing a party:
(NOTE: I have HEAVILY edited this post based on people's feedback)
"Two nature gods, one Neutral Good (Equivalent to Ehlonna/Meilikki/Arawai/Habakkuk) and one Neutral Evil (I haven't statted him yet, but Malar is a good start, What is Malar's equivalent in Greyhawk/Eberron/Dragonlance? Ah I'll just get an equivalent number of thematic domains and be done with it!), have devised a scenario of champions to settle their differences. They both cooperate to create a world together, one that is full of nature's benevolence and nature's wrath. They populate it with all sorts of plants and animals, as well as various sorts of minor fae and humanoid foes and challenges, and all sorts of places holy to their ideals. They make sure that arcane magic will NOT work in this world at all, and the only planes that any non deity which travels or uses abilities to link to it are a special version of each deity's home plane. They make sure that there are no magic items in the world, and none of the demihumans in the world have the ability to create any, and there is no actual 'civilization' anywhere on the world. The two gods see they have created a world to their liking, and they further wager that, should one group of champions win, then the world they created jointly will continue to flourish in the image of the winner, and the losing deity would have to take an embarrassing position in charge of minor creatures and demihumans. Both deities agree to this wager on the future of this world, as well as using this system to settle their differences. They then each create seven human champions, imbue them with a limited amount of divine power (ie, they are all level 1 divine classes, they have some knowledge of what they have to do (ie, overcome challenges on this continent until they have the full measure of their power, and then seek out and destroy the other group as soon as the other group has amassed the same level of power), they have their spells, anything needed to cast their spells, they have skills appropriate to the setting, and they start with some simple wooden weapons and tools), and drop each group in their own continents. The PC's are the Neutral Good group. What scrolls they scribe (on paper they make...) and items they create and spells they cast will show what is going to become 'what is possible' in the future of this world, and they will at some point obtain some of the spells from certain options that they chose not to have, but only to scribe them for item creation and open them up for future generations, not to actually cast. How is this group best built, and what should they do to prepare? How should they try to survive and go up against appropriate threats with only self crafted items using spells they specifically have access to? Also assume for the sake of the thought experiment that only one character (Presumably the Archivist) can get item creation feats beyond what is given automatically by classes or prestige classes. Also the NG group will never be granted the ability to cast any obviously evil spells, nor will they have any spells with the Evil or related subtype where that type was obviously not a typo. The available domains for the NG group are (based on combining several setting's NG nature domains, and a few other thematic ones): Animal, Celerity, Creation, Good, Life, Plant, Purification, Renewal, Sun, Travel, Water, and Weather, Storm, Air. Note any of these domains which happen to have two or more versions of the same spell list, allow a choice from ALL spells listed to be put in domain slots. The NE group's deity has access to these domains: Animal, Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Moon, Strength, Bestial, Fire, Earth, Hatred, Retribution, Darkness, Shadow, and Hunger. All outsiders linked to this realm are directly serving one of these two deities, in their home realm of this setting... so no Pazuzu cheese, cause he doesn't exist in this setting, and anything 'demonic' probably works directly for the NE deity."
Also by DM Fiat, you can't get access to spells that monsters, outsiders, angels or whatever have for actual on screen casting time, unless you are writing that as one of your "limited throughout the entire campaign, really planned out, this is a ritual thing" casting of one of the 'for posterity' spells on your list that you didn't choose and won't get access to. I'm thinking perhaps that every major way of getting access to this can be used as an excuse for a ritual, ONCE, that lets you cast that obscure spell as part of that ritual? So collecting ways to get access to the spells you won't GET in your build itself is useful, each of those excuses can fuel one ritual throughout the game or so? So the Chameleon / Extra Spell floating feat could help the Shugenja or Bard easily get their for posterity stuff written down early, OR someone get access to a spell *their compatriots could also cast*, BUT it would only be able to be used as a way to cast a "posterity only" spell ONCE in the game, as part of a ritual. Comprende?
NG Cloistered Cleric-- Celerity, Knowledge, Travel. Use Contemplative to pick up Creation or Renewal.
NG Druid (Shapeshifting Variant maybe, so that there is some capability to shapeshift at day one, cause they will probably need it...)
NG Gestalt-ish Good Domain Religious Adept / Sentinel (NG Paladin) (using one combined spell list, this seems to be a good way to get access to the Adept list, the Good list 1-5, and make the Paladin useful in a spellcasting focused world. Miracle or one of the other 'it gets written down if they win' options would get that access to spells on the normal paladin list that happen to not be on the Sentinel or Good Religious Adept list.)
NG Savage Divine Bard -- pick up spells that are useful in early item creation that are not on anyone else's list. (Miracle will eventually get the rest of the Savage Bard spells that the character didn't choose, for later generations, as well as access to the un-chosen spells on the normal Divine Bard list, as divine spells)
NG Mystic Ranger (Wild Shape Variant, I wrote up a 'here is a bunch of medium dromeosaurid forms' for the wild shape ranger elsewhere, I might put up a link if folk ask for it.)
NG Shugenja -- I'm thinking an Air/Zephyr Shugenja, the Illusionist of the group? Letting Color Spray exist in the setting is important!
NG Archivist -- focus on item creation, focus on Runes (Presumably written in Sylvan, which I would say is the language everyone speaks, which is the core language to Elven... hell, I'd give them all Druidic too, as that is a language that only THEY know, that no one else on the planet but the opfor group knows), going into Runecaster. Archivist 10/Runecaster 10 would be great.
I don't see any particular reason to get the Healer class. Since the Archivist is the crafter, taking large numbers of very versatile item creation feats (see my possible list later), and liberally using the skill improvement spells to make masterwork mundane items... with the spells given *from* his companions, that they specifically have access to, and with Miracle (and similar things) only giving access to, beyond existing spells, "Spells the companions could have chosen to have but didn't," what would be possible to make? What *appropriate* ways to add spells to these character's lists are there, keeping in mind that there aren't actually any wizards anywhere to actually get spells from, and by divine fiat they can't get access to any spells from the Opposing Team? I'm thinking of characters taking lots of Initiate feats, or other feats that add a small list of spells to the spell list... What prestige classes that are thematically appropriate add specific spells known to their existing lists? I'm thinking a prestige class that ADDS a domain that is not a deity's domain is the only way to get that domain in existence in the setting! is there a useful and relevant base class I missed, by the way?
Note: If the druid goes Planar Shepherd, the only plane they would have access to is the specially made plane of their patron deity, with some useful but not overpowering planar traits (like extend and enlarge some of the spellcasting, for example), and they could go talk to the deity there, and presumably learn from the individual creatures that have specific spells they might not otherwise have chosen, but this would simply be another way for the party to get access to spells that are on their extended list(s), but that they didn't choose to have access to for some reason, for posterity. Also if they manage to SUMMON these unique individuals somehow, they can learn the spells from them, but only if it is the type of summoning that gets them a unique individual, and that individual describes the spell to them for the Archivist's book. Basically, any of these or other tricks simply trick that gets them access to their "expanded" lists, they are doing their duty to the later generations... but there will be a limited number of times in the ENTIRE CAMPAIGN when they might be able to CAST one of these spells for some purpose, and it would probably have to be done as a ritual or something, probably to enable item creation... if they take a feat that lets them have access to more spells on their list, that's another thing entirely, of course. But guys, PLEASE help me figure out their 'expanded' lists, that's what I am asking for, mostly!
And I tried to figure out what item creation feats the Archivist 10/Runecaster10 would HAVE... what do you guys think of this?
Scribe Scroll 1st
Legendary Artisan 1st
Extraordinary Artisan 1st
Craft Wondrous Item 3rd
Inscribe Rune 6th -- making lots of wondrous items totally not needed, especially with runecaster benefits!
Craft Magic Arms and Armor 9th -- I guess it's possible to get by without ANY magic weapons and armor, and just using Wondrous items until level 9, right? How well would that work? If they needed good armor, I would say, as soon as they get access to Wood Shape, after an early quest, everyone has access to Duskwood Breastplates (which act like Mithral Breastplates, but made of wood and not as hard or tough, but just as light as mithril breastplates), and if they later, with a quest, "Blue" it to get it to hardness 15 like true mithril, similar to the alchemically treated Bluewood, and then when they have access to the Ironwood spell, "Ironwood" it, which would give them basically the bonuses of Adamantine and Mithril together, letting it having hardness 30 and being just as light as Mithril...
Craft Scepter 10th -- these seem better than wands, right? Are any staffs worth it AT ALL over scepters? Scepters really do seem to be the best for this...
Craft Rod 12th -- Rods are good! Nightsticks are rods! Woohoo!
Sanctify Relics 15th --Gotta get those Raptor Arrows somehow! Though I guess with this group they'd have to be Raptor Atlatl Javelins or something... but that would be totally awesome...
Forge Ring 18h -- Rings are good too!
Been thinking a lot... Here's a list of weapons that would be considered 'simple' and 'druid' for this setting... EVERYONE starts proficient with these weapons. What do you all think? If you'll notice, all of the simple weapons can be almost completely made out of normal wood with no problems.. Yes, basically all weapons that do slashing damage are Martial! You need flintknapping (or exotic woods, or the ironwood spell and wood shape, or whatever) for those, at least!
Light Club 1d6, 20/x2, Bludgeoning, Light Weapon
Club 1d8 20/x2 Bludgeoning, 1 handed
Greatclub 1d10 20/x2 Bludgeoning, 2 handed
Shortstaff 1d6/1d6 20/x2 Bludgeoning, 2 Handed
Longstaff 1d6 20/x2 Bludgeoning 2 handed, 10' Reach
Throwing Spear 1d6 20/x2 30' Range Increment, Piercing, 1 Handed, Can be thrown with an Atlatl*
Longspear 1d8 20/x3 Piercing, 2 Handed, 10' Reach
Blowgun 1d3 20/x2, 10' range increment, maximum 5 range increments, piercing, fires blowgun needles, requires two hands to fire and reload, and a move action to reload.
Small Boomerang 1d4 damage, 20/x2, 20' range increment, Bludgeoning, 1 Handed, Ranged ONLY, returns on a miss
Large Boomerang 1d8 damage, 20/x2, 30' range increment, Bludgeoning, 1 Handed, Ranged ONLY, does not return on a miss
*Atlatl--improves thrown damage of a throwing spear to 1d8, 20/x3, increases range increment to 90', atlatl adds a +2 to the character's effective strength for throwing the spear, as the character can use their existing strength more effectively. Requires a Move action to Reload a new Throwing Spear.
Note: Rapid Reload works just fine with an Atlatl and Blowgun.
So, I'm thinking of instead of giving them MONEY, just say, "the price of items is in order to determine how long and how difficult they are to cast. Items are created using treasure that basically counts as experience for purposes of crafting, which should follow the wealth per level curve, based on an average of how much experience it takes a normal crafter to make that much money worth of magic items. At any given moment, your group will have 1/8th the gp in expendible XP equivalent for item creation of your expected wealth per level, per character. No actual loss of real honest XP is happening in this game by DM fiat. Nonmagical crafting will be quite generous, but you have to actually find materials -- some stuff will be placed in the gameworld, and getting stuff will be part of the story, but if characters want to make specific nonmagical things, bring it up out of game and I'll see what I can do." Of course, this particular group would end up with lots of items made of oak/densewood/darkwood/duskwood/bronzewood/ironwood/bluewood/serrenwood/livewood, those being pretty much all the useful woods in D&D for crafting (heh, only oak for Shillelagh!).
Of course, the two groups would only meet after they have maxxed out 20th level experience, and maxxed out their crafting reserve, at which point they would do some big long epic battle thing where if one character in either group is alive, and everyone else in the two groups is dead, THAT GROUP WINS.
Sorry, for some reason, this setting idea / thought experiment has been bugging me! Although it would definitely be an INTERESTING way to figure out, ultimately, what an Archivist can do in a setting.. and what the group could do! It's also interesting as the Archivist ONLY gets access to spells at precisely the same time his compatriots do... and for those who have to choose a few spells from a larger spell list, like the Divine Bard and the Shujenga would have to mostly choose spells from their lists that no one else has access to... The party will need some interesting tricks to get access to extra spells that they can actually CAST, while they are simultaneously looking for ways to get extended lists down for posterity... getting access to as many of their god's domains would be important, for example, and as many extra domains as possible! As well as spell adding feats and prestige classes and such... But could you all help me enumerate those, okay? Oh, FYI, "Rapid access to a particular alternative spellcasting list" prestige classes, feats, and such do not exist, instead go for things that are appropriate for that deity that ADD divine spells to one of the group's characters' lists would be appropriate. I can't stress this enough! I just don't know about things that do that other than initiate feats! But this rule says no Ur-Priests or Nentyar Hunters, a workable thing would be a prestige class that ADDS to spells known like Sandshaper does for Arcane spells.
