Partial gestalt, potential problems?

[weenog]

I was looking at the racial paragon classes, and I got to thinking about something I might like to ask our DM to try the next time we start a new game.  He'll probably be worried about possible gamebreakers, and I really don't want to introduce any of those either.  Figured checking in here with folks that know the rules inside and out first would be best.

What are the potential pitfalls of this house rule?

All characters' (excluding characters that don't advance by class) first 3 levels are gestalt levels.  One "side" of each gestalt level must be either the character's racial paragon class if any, or their favored class (player's choice, mix and match if you like).  Characters with ECL up to 3 + class level can gestalt with their racial HD and/or LA instead, if desired.  4th character level and onward are gained as normal characters, and gestalt rules against hybrid prestige classes do not apply.

[McPoyo]

Immediate issues I see involve people playing races with a tier 1 favored class, and getting extra oomph out of it. Like Dual spellcasting progression without any loss.

[weenog]

Something like elf wizard 3|archivist 3/mystic theurge X/dual casting foo rest... that could get ugly.   Though I think it'd just get ugly a little quicker, it's not like you can't do dual 9s pre-epic without gestalt.  Still, something to be aware of and consider carefully.

Any other major issues come to mind?

[McPoyo]

I'd be worried more about wizard//ardent/ur-priest/multi-casting foo classes, personally. I'm sure Kell has a way to trip that off easily enough somewhere in his notes. If I wasn't at work I'd work up a build to see how bad it got without going Blackhat.

Other issues would be Tier 1 on the gestault, and three free levels of whatever high bab/high hp class on the other side you wanted.

Or Cleric//Crusader/Ruby Knight Windicator cheese earlier, or with extra shenanigans thrown in. I think restricting it to Paragon classes or racial HD for monstrous creatures would work better, imo.

[weenog]

Well, hell.  Perhaps there's a better way.  What I'm really looking for is a (relatively) simple way to do 3 things.

• Get the group some experience with gestalt without jumping into the deep end immediately.
• Make characters a little tougher and more resourceful in the low levels.
• Give characters' races more mechanical importance, without pigeonholing them or leaving out races that have no paragons.

I'm not sure if there's a single solution, but the way I was considering is starting to seem uncomfortably open to abuse.

EDIT: I did consider restricting it to just paragons or racial HD/LA, but that leaves critters like goblins out in the cold.

[McPoyo]

Well, hell.  Perhaps there's a better way.  What I'm really looking for is a (relatively) simple way to do 3 things.

• Get the group some experience with gestalt without jumping into the deep end immediately.
• Make characters a little tougher and more resourceful in the low levels.
• Give characters' races more mechanical importance, without pigeonholing them or leaving out races that have no paragons.

I'm not sure if there's a single solution, but the way I was considering is starting to seem uncomfortably open to abuse.

Handing out extra HP or the like, or magic items earlier than they would normally get them would help with number 2. As for number three, I don't know many races without a paragon level that wouldn't qualify for racial HD. That said, is there a particular race without a paragon class that they'd be looking at, or normally desire, to play?

[weenog]

Goblin is a likely one, I've always liked the race, plus the group got together initially over all being fans of the Goblins webcomic.  Warforged is another likely candidate for at least two of us.  The DM's also got some weird homebrew races with no associated paragons that we might like to try.

[McPoyo]

Google it. There's a paragon for goblin and 'Forged, both. Homebrew, but they exist.

[Prime32]

Get the group some experience with gestalt without jumping into the deep end immediately.

For this, I'd just ask players not to multiclass - that's where most of the confusion comes from.

[Widow]

I don't really see any pitfalls beyond the usual gestalt rules.  Sure it might help them qualify for some things early, but if you use the gestalt rules you cannot take a dual progression PrC any way (I would say that applies even if you are just gestalting the first 3 levels).  Also the cheesy examples given are just slower cheese in a normal game.  If the DM okays an Ur-chord build in a normal game, then is he is pretty much the same place with the minor gestalt     

Also if someone wants to play something lacking HD and a paragon, then they must have a reason why they think it is better.  You can always modify a paragon to fit another race if necessary if they select something out of RP reasons.

Oh and if you are going goblin, why not go with a blue goblin.  Ha, they are funny and that will eat up a +1 LA for the other side. 

I would suggest bloodlines as another option, but that actually does get really scary if you set out to build a uber class feature stacking build.  Although I ran a game with a Free +2 LA or Major bloodline for all the PC's, and only one character took bloodlines.

[Mixster]

Well I really can't see the harm in this if you are going only PHB races. It gives people an icentitive to be an elf.

How will you handle favoured class: Any though?

I really like this idea since it also gives people who want to do a LA or Racial HD race some opportunity to do so.

[weenog]

DM doesn't like psionic stuff, so blue goblin is out, though I suppose a templated goblin could work.  Don't know about bloodlines, will ask.

Favored Class: Any (assuming favored class levels remain an option) would be levels of any class, assuming you met the requirements of course.  For something like a human where your favored class switches around to match your highest-leveled base class, the first 3 levels would all have to include levels of the character's highest-leveled base class on one "side", and the others could be whatever, as usual.  As an aside, are there any Favored Class: Any races that don't have their mutable favored class decided by which class is the highest level?

I don't think races with a mutable favored class like that would really miss the point of giving their race more mechanical importance by gestalting with whichever class happens to be their favored class.  Those races do tend to be known for their versatility and adaptability, after all, being capable of surprising you with damned near anything is kind of the point.  A paladin with sneak attack and evasion may be weird, but it'd be pretty human.

[Surreal]

Not really a getalt; I've played in a game where we all started at 1st level, but we all got racial paragon levels for free. We gained all the hd and usual benefits, but for purposes of feats/PrCs/etc only what we gained from our class levels counted. Any paragon classes that progressed casting just added to caster level instead. Overall, we found this didn't change the game much except for some extra meatiness at early levels, and allowed the DM a lot more leeway when crafting low level encounters.

[Widow]

DM doesn't like psionic stuff, so blue goblin is out, though I suppose a templated goblin could work.  Don't know about bloodlines, will ask.

Favored Class: Any (assuming favored class levels remain an option) would be levels of any class, assuming you met the requirements of course.  For something like a human where your favored class switches around to match your highest-leveled base class, the first 3 levels would all have to include levels of the character's highest-leveled base class on one "side", and the others could be whatever, as usual.  As an aside, are there any Favored Class: Any races that don't have their mutable favored class decided by which class is the highest level?

I don't think races with a mutable favored class like that would really miss the point of giving their race more mechanical importance by gestalting with whichever class happens to be their favored class.  Those races do tend to be known for their versatility and adaptability, after all, being capable of surprising you with damned near anything is kind of the point.  A paladin with sneak attack and evasion may be weird, but it'd be pretty human.

A shame the blue goblin is out, one of my favorites for flavor (although I keep hearing Will Ferrell from old school in my head).

Favored class any should not be a problem.  You can still multiclass alot on the other side, which would keep your high class the favorite.  Also human paragon is pretty good.  You could take your primary caster level at level 1, and then switch out for two other levels while the paragon progresses the caster class (unless you are going Dread necromancer or something where you actually want the base class levels).  Also if you need more races, races of destiny has a number of PC's with the human subtype.

For a melee build, a half-dragon/half-dragon paragon would be pretty cool and not cost you the usual HD loss from LA. 

Like wise a drow (+2) or deep gnome (+3) could be pretty good.

Drow LA 1/ Drow Paragon
Cleric  1  / Drow Paragon
Drow LA 1/ Drow Paragon

Maybe something like that to prevent caster level loss.  The deep gnome would be funny, but they have horrible Cha for their bard casting, ha.

Also don't forget they made a kobold paragon, not that we need more kobold love.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060127a