Author Topic: Working out a couple of characters...  (Read 1687 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kalaskaagathas

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • "Seek Perfection of Character" - Gichin Funakoshi
Working out a couple of characters...
« on: July 03, 2010, 05:53:14 PM »
I've a pair of games coming up, and could use help in building characters for them.  Neither allow casting, either arcane or divine.  Similarly (as much as it pains me) neither allow ToB, though feats may be permitted with DM approval.  The first campaign is a Renaissance Italy (well, a fantasy world that looks like Renaissance Italy, but with elves and dwarves and such.) Political Intrigue and Swashbuckling adventure game, and the second has been described to me as "...an adventure on the savannas with, like, Golden Age of Islam style governance and culture, except, like, with less technology and broken up like the various German states, and also with some influences from Japan's and China's respective Warring States Periods..." so really I'm not sure what it's going to look like, but I do know the characters are going to be from a tribe of nomads and should be able to function with minimal gear.  Also, neither allow Leadership.

Anyhow, house rules for the first:
[spoiler]The rules we'll be using are a sort of amalgamation between 3.5 and Pathfinder, and as such the classes that have not been updated may be a little different (the updates will be worked out by the player wanting to use whatever class we update and the DM, and voted on by the group).  There is no magic, nor psionics, nor pact, truespeach, or shadow magic, et al.  This is a non-gestalt game (well, kinda).  We'll get feats every odd level, and skills are as detailed in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.  Combat Maneuvers and their respective feats (Trip, Grapple, &c.) are as in 3.5.  The following feats are changed:
  • We will use fractional BAB and Saves.
  • Change Prices in Gp to Sp, Sp to Cp, etc.  Starting wealth is unchanged (i.e. still measured in Gp).
  • Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Far Shot have been merged.
  • Two Weapon Fighting and its tree are now one feat, providing one off hand attack per regular attack (except in some cases, as with Snap Kick), as are Multi-Weapon Fighting and its tree (which is usable with manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes).
  • The various "Improved x" feats are as they were in 3.5, and are affected byWeapon Finesse.
  • Combat Reflexes and Combat Expertise are merged.
  • Power Attack works as it did in 3.5, and Deadly Aim has been changed to match.
  • Bows count as two handed weapons for the purpose of Deadly Aim, composite bows fit a range of strengths (i.e. 1-5.5) and auto adjust, within their range, up to the character's strength-and-one-half.
  • Flurry of Blows works with any weapon you are proficient with and allows a full attack as a standard action.
  • Monk abilities work in light or no armor.
  • Spring Attack and Shot on the Run are merged.
  • Some weapon and armor enhancements (i.e. Keen, distance, speed, et cetera) are available as Ex: enhancements.
  • Improved Feint makes feinting a free action.
  • Dodge gives a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-half character level, rounded down, no less than one, and includes Mobility which adds either +4 to AC against attacks of opportunity or your dodge bonus (which is therefore doubled), whichever is higher.
  • Any finesse-able one handed weapon counts as a light weapon for purpose of Two Weapon Fighting.
  • Improved Unarmed Strike grants the Monk's Unarmed Damage Progression and works on improvised weapons, and Superior Unarmed Strike therefore works only as it does for monks.
[/spoiler]

So, with that in mind, I would like to build a character who is quick witted and gets by on skill and guile rather than sheer strength.  I don't know what the rest of the party is playing (there's one Fighter 20//Aristocrat 20, that's all I know) so out of combat I'd like to be the Social and Sneak with plenty of skills, and play as Striker and Battlefield Controller in combat.  I was thinking Swashbuckler 3 for Insightful Strike and Weapon Finesse then Rogue with the class stacking feat for those two, and a level of monk and Ascetic Rogue (which advances Flurry of Blows in addition to damage) and Snap Kick along with Multi-Weapon Fighting and Combat Reflexes+Improved Trip in order to effectively do BC.  Lunge will give me reach and Improved Feint should make for easy sneak attacking.  I may need some levels of fighter to get the feats, and I'd love to fit Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Investigate, Research, and Dodge+Spring Attack in there.  Also, I'd like two levels of Shadow Dancer as that will give me Hide In Plain Sight, Improved Evasion (As I'll have regular Evasion from Rogue 2, the DM says they will stack), Improved Uncanny Dodge (Again, having Uncanny Dodge from Rogue 4), and Darkvision, all of which will be fantastically useful.  For those keeping track that's 14 of my 10+however many else feats (Daring Outlaw, Ascetic Rogue, Snap Kick, Multi-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Lunge, Improved Feint, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Investigate, Research, Dodge, and Spring Attack.) in fact, make that seventeen with Leap of the Heavens, Double Slice, and Knowledge Devotion (though no one of them is a deal breaker).  Which do you think are most important, and what order do you think I should get them in?

If there is a more elegant way to do this, then please let me know.  Also, as far as out of combat skills and skill tricks go, I'm at a loss.  Other than putting more ranks into Diplomacy, Bluff, Acrobatics, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Heal, Knowledge (Engineering, Nobility, and Local or History depending on what the DM wants for Knowledge Devotion), Linguistics, Perception, Perform (Dance 2 at the very least, as prereq for Shadow Dancer), Ride, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, and Stealth, I'm not sure how to effectively do the whole skill monkey thing.

I also need help picking a race (I was thinking human or some variant thereof, for the bonus feat and skills), up to two flaws, and up to two traits (Quick and something else mayhaps), and spending my gold (which is now up-valued, as Masterwork Items only cost 30 more Gp rather than 300 more).  Any ideas on what levels to put where, when to get which feats, and what to buy?  Also, with third party books available (subject to DM approval) are there any feats you think might help.  I know I'm not exactly hurting for feat choices, but if there's a real gem that I could nab I'm all ears.

Since our enemies will be humanoids or animals I don't think I need to worry about immunity to sneak attacks, criticals, &c.

Oh, and one other thing, we each will be gestalted with one or two other NPC classes.  The first level must be Aristocrat, the rest are whatever we like.  I was thinking mainly Expert for the skills (as we will receive the better BAB between classes (as normal) the better saves (so one could theoretically have perfect saves) and the skill points from both classes), though I'm open to suggestion.

Finally, for my weapon choice, I plan to wield a pair of Nimblewright's Rapier Hands, which are one-handed martial weapons and give a +4 to trip and disarm checks (and can be used for both), are finesse-able, and deal 2d6 damage, crit 16-20/x2, and deal piercing and/or slashing.  They cost 50 silver a piece, or 35 gold a piece for the masterwork variant.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for the second game's house rules:
[spoiler]
  • This game is Gestalt.
  • We will use fractional BAB and Saves.
  • No Arcane or Divine casting, no ToB, but Psionics, Incarnum, Pact, Truename, and Shadow Magic are fine.
  • We can advance PrCs simultaneously.
  • Psions automatically gain their discipline powers, which do not count against their total powers known, and all the discipline bonus class skills are Psion class skills.  Also, a Psion may learn off-discipline powers and Psychic Warrior powers (i.e. Nomad powers for an Egoist) as the level they are, rather than one level higher.
  • The races Elan, Synad, and Empty Vessel are merged, gaining the ability mods of the Empty Vessel alone, and the racial traits and abilities of all three, and +0 LA.
  • Synad's Oracle ability is usable once per day as written, and then again so long as the Synad spends 1*x power point to use it (where x is the number of times the ability has been used that day).  The Multitask ability is similarly changed.
  • The Psion may learn new powers as an Erudite does, and gains Psicrystal Affinity as a bonus feat in addition to its bonus feat at first level.
  • The Meditant requires only one Deep Psychic Meditation, rather than three.
  • All WotC published material is open, save ToB and the aforementioned Arcane and Divine magic, 3rd party is available subject to DM review and approval (Hyperconscious is approved).
  • Tashalatora does not have Monastic Training as a prerequisite and advances Flurry of Blows, unarmed strike damage, armor bonus, and fast movement.
[/spoiler]

So I was thinking I'd like to play an Empty Vessel (/Synad/Elan, as they are combined) Psion//Incarnate (Law or Good) chrono-legionnaire/trancer type.  But I'm unsure where to start, what PRCs to choose, etc.  As far as feats go, at least up until level seven and psy-reform, I was thinking I'd take Enhanced Elan Resilience,  and Psycarnum Infusion+Azure Talent and Midnight Augmentation as that will provide a recharge set up.  Also, Tashalatora and Carmendine Monk could be quite useful.  Other than that, I'm not sure what to get, but I like the idea of being able to swap roles by swapping feats, buffs, and melds.  On that note, what melds ought I shape, and for what purpose?  And again, I could use help with flaws and traits (two of each, one trait being Quick).

I appreciate any help with these two.

Edit: Oh, and for the second game, psionic items (and all other mystical items) will likely be in short supply, but if we can craft them ourselves then they are fair game, so I may want to get Craft: Psionic Tattoo or whatever it's called.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 05:58:07 PM by kalaskaagathas »

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Working out a couple of characters...
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2010, 06:05:20 PM »
For the first game, does no psionics exclude things like soulknife/soulbow which can't use psionic powers? Consider Mercantile Background to gain the equivalent of 3000 extra gp.

For the second game, Synad psion seems the obvious choice yeah. Note that Tashalatora does not actually require levels in monk. ;) If you want to play at multiple roles, binder and chameleon get you more swappable stuff, while factotum gets you more immediate options + Int synergy (and can be very strong in gestalt due to gaining extra standard actions).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 06:11:41 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

kalaskaagathas

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • "Seek Perfection of Character" - Gichin Funakoshi
Re: Working out a couple of characters...
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 07:02:01 PM »
Yes, the first game disallows soulknife/soulbow, and having played one before, I'd like to try something new regardless.  For the second, Chameleon isn't able to do casting, and there's already a binder in the party, so I'm not terribly interested in that one either.  And yes, I noted Tashalatora does not need monk levels to function, which is handy.  I really am interested in Incarnum, I've seen it in play once (I built a Totemist for my little brother, between his native natural attacks and Girrallon Arms he had something like five or seven attacks per round at level five, and was quite a hit at the table) and I'd like to give it a try myself.  And with Psy Reform I should be able to rapidly change melds, should I not?  Also, as to Factotum, yeah, they have a lot of options but Arcane Dilettante wouldn't work (I might be able to trade it for a psionic variant, though) but I've played a Factotum before, and would rather try something a little different.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Working out a couple of characters...
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 07:09:27 PM »
Eh, psychic reformation costs at least 50XP (and has a 10-minute manifesting time, not to mention cutting into your pp). Dunno if you'd want to do that multiple times per day... Shame chameleons wouldn't be able to use some of their focuses (though you could get a psionic focus I suppose) - two levels gets you a bonus feat which you can change every day. Note that you can use this to take Expanded Knowledge and item crafting feats.

There's always psionic artificer, and the potential abuse of gestalting two manifesting classes to combine their pp pools.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 07:11:31 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

kalaskaagathas

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • "Seek Perfection of Character" - Gichin Funakoshi
Re: Working out a couple of characters...
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2010, 11:31:11 PM »
Psy Reform may cost 50 xp, 10 minutes, and PP each time, but a Psionic tattoo of Psy Reform can be made effectively permanent, and therefore much more practical.

S_Jerusalem

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 57
Re: Working out a couple of characters...
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 02:13:46 PM »
For the first game:

One of the first things that came to mind when I read the description was that a Daring Outlaw would be great. I think you might be better served taking mostly Swashbuckler levels which combined with Expert's SPs will get you closer to full BAB and SA. The way unarmed strike works in the game, it is probably more than worth it to take say : Rogue2/Monk2/Swash16. You also don't really need the Ascetic Rogue feat if IUAS already gives monk damage, TWF will get you all the attacks you should need. You could always switch out some levels of Swash for a couple fighter or ranger (2 levels of ranger seems good), but keep in mind the compromise of SA damage.

If you can take Knowledge Devotion, definitely do so. Shield of Blades Swash from PHB2. Also, Staggering Strike. This build would be a vicious murder machine.

I could also see doing something like Monk2/Scout4/Ranger14 with Swift Hunter, since it allows flurry as a standard action Skirmish should be simple and effective.

Surreal

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1430
    • Email
Re: Working out a couple of characters...
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2010, 03:37:51 PM »
I don't think psy reform will let you change soulmelds during the day. A meldshaper automatically knows all the soulmelds on his list, he simply *chooses* which ones to shape at the beginning of each day, which is different from psyreform which lets you rechoose options from your most recent level up.
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

kalaskaagathas

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • "Seek Perfection of Character" - Gichin Funakoshi
Re: Working out a couple of characters...
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2010, 05:32:00 PM »
Upon re-reading it, I have to agree with you, Surreal.  But it would still allow me to hot-swap feats and powers (though with the different power learning mechanic, I may not need to) and give me some flexibility in my role.

S_Jerusalem: Thanks for pointing me to Shield of Blades, I'll definitely be using that.  I need to check with my DM to see if the blades will count as light weapons for that ACF since they do for MWF but I think she'll be open to allowing it.  I think I'll benefit more from the Pathfinder Rogue Talents than I would from more levels of Swash, since with Ascetic Rogue I'll get essentially full BAB from the way the Pathfinder Monk's Flurry of Blows works.  I could do Swash 8 for Acrobatic Charge but I don't honestly see myself as a charger, and if I were to be charging a lot, I'd just take Battle Jump which basically supersedes Acrobatic Charge anyway.  And I'll look at Staggering Strike, it looks like it would give me effective BC which is always good.

I'm still looking for a race as well, so if you've got any suggestions I'm all ears.  I'm looking mostly for something with the Human bonus feat and skills, but with good ability mods.  Oh, and speaking of abilities, mine are (before any modifiers) as follows:
STR: 15
DEX: 18
CON: 17
INT: 18
CHA: 17
WIS: 12

S_Jerusalem

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 57
Re: Working out a couple of characters...
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2010, 09:17:22 PM »
I managed to forget you are using the PF updated classes... heh. More Rogue talents are probably better considering PFMonk Flurry, you're right. I believe under the ACF it states that the "blades" in shield of blades don't have to be, you basically just have to be TWFing.

Do you have to stick to the same NPC Gestalt or can you mix them up? If so, you could always slap in a level of Warrior each level you would lose out on BAB.