Author Topic: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )  (Read 8023 times)

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Radijs

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So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« on: July 01, 2010, 08:26:20 PM »
Well not ages but it has been over 2 years nearly since I last touched a DnD book. And starting next week a friend is going to run a mini campaign/dungeon crawl.

I volunteered to play the beatstick and figured a warblade or shadow blade would be a nice way to do it. Alignment is not going to be very relevant.
But like I said, its been ages and I really wouldn't know where to start/go with this.

The character can be powerful but shouldn't be overly-cheesy. So could you guys help me with a few handy builds?

Starting level is going to be 5, with 28 point-buy characters and over the course of the story arc the character is likely to advance to level 8.
The setting is forgotten realms, the only restriction given was "no spellfire".

I'd appreciate any tips you have.
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Shadowhunter

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 11:14:38 PM »
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 11:16:28 PM by Shadowhunter »
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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raith0

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 10:24:48 AM »
im not a big fan of ToB to be honest.  not that i am saying its bad or broken just not my style.  i prefer to have spells over manuevers.  so my tanks are ussally gishes and they are really good at the 5-10 level range.  so if this is your style heres a couple of ideas.

Fighter 4 /wizard 1/ abjurant champion 3
or as a dwarf
Fighter 3/ wizard 1/ runesmith 1/ abjurant champion 3

the first will have more hp slightly on average the second allows to cast in fullplate so you can just cast str/con buffs and wraithstrike

or if you want pure melee i would take a chain tripping fighter/rogue or swashbuckler build. 

Brainpiercing

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2010, 10:43:57 AM »
Quick lock Warblade:

Goliath
1: Warblade 1 (PA, , Knockback (f),Combat Ref(f))
2: Fighter1 (Improved BR (F))
3: Warblade 2 (Stand Still )
4: Warblade 3
5: Lion Totem Mountain Rage Barb 1
6: Crusader 1, take at least 1 Devoted Spirit maneuver, Shocktrooper;
7: Fighter 2: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)

With Buyback you have one more level to play with, I suggest Warblade 4.

You do not have dungeoncrasher with this build, but you do get Knockback for tactical movement of enemies, and at level 7 you shut them down with a reach weapon. Ideally you charge in, pounce them, knock them into each other to make the trip, then knockback anyone who approaches you, or simply make them stop with Stand Still. If you like, you can still swap Stand still for EWP (Spiked Chain), just for giggles. With more levels you could add tripping to the build, or dungeoncrashing, but if it's supposed to work by level 8 that's hard to do.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2010, 03:19:11 PM »
Fighter 3/ wizard 1/ runesmith 1/ abjurant champion 3


Seriously dude... why would you take Fighter 3 over another level of wizard? Wizard 2 also gives you a point of BAB, and it advances your spellcasting. Fighter 3 gives you nothing. At all.
[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

raith0

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2010, 04:12:20 PM »
Fighter 3/ wizard 1/ runesmith 1/ abjurant champion 3


Seriously dude... why would you take Fighter 3 over another level of wizard? Wizard 2 also gives you a point of BAB, and it advances your spellcasting. Fighter 3 gives you nothing. At all.

was just doing it ruff and quick away from books but the d10 hit die in an e8 game can make a difference of 2-3 hp on average. if nuthing else it would be better to add a second level of runesmith to make the bab requirement of abj  champ. 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2010, 04:39:59 PM »
Now that I think about it, Runesmith requires 5 levels of classes to enter (8 ranks in Craft: Stoneworking). So both Ftr3/wiz 1 and ftr2/wiz 2 are not legal entries. Normally I see ftr1/wiz 4 suggested as the best entry for that PrC.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2010, 05:27:50 PM »
Two-Headed from Savage Species is
2 racial hd + 2 L.A.
that'd give you just one level to work with; and low hit points to cover up.
Otherwise, you get Superior 2 weapon fighting (feat equivalent).
Feat Rogue 1 would mostly cover the necessary skill monkey stuff, minus 2 real levels.
Your Spot + Search would be even better.

And you "could" look like my avatar ... sort-of.

Endarire

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2010, 10:09:28 PM »
Hood.

I haven't promoted her on this board in at least a week!
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Lycanthromancer

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2010, 01:04:53 AM »
There's always human psychic warrior 5, either going into illithid slayer (or just slayer, since illithids can't be put into the SRD) or just staying plain psychic warrior.

Wield a ranseur and a gauntlet, use expansion during the first round of the fight and move into position, so your massive reach (20+ feet) covers as many enemies as possible, then Improved Trip the Hell out of everything that provokes. Any time you kill anything (probable, given how much damage you'll be doing), you can then Cleave-Trip other critters nearby.

I'd say Con = Dex = Wis > Str > Int > Cha, with at least a 14 in the first three, but make sure you have a 13 in your Strength, for Power Attack and Cleave (your Strength can be boosted via animal affinity, size increases, strength of my enemy, etc).

1. Expansion,
[Bonus] Combat Reflexes, [Human] Combat Expertise, [1st] Improved Trip
2. Vigor,
[Bonus] Linked Power (from Complete Psionic, to improve your buffing and action economy drastically)
3. Grip of iron (both for the swift action manifesting time - combine with Linked Power - and to help you grapple foes or escape grapples if need be)
[3rd] Power Attack
4. Strength of my enemy
5. Animal affinity/body adjustment/concealing amorpha/hustle/psionic lion's charge (depending on what you want, since 2nd level psychic warrior powers are awesome)
[Bonus] Cleave

Since your Strength is frequently going to be boosted, and you get to make touch attacks (then regular attacks at a +4 bonus) you can Power Attack more without worrying so much about hitting. Later on you can get Robilar's Gambit and similar, and Shock Trooper to skive off your AC for attacks rather than attack bonus.

Later on you can see about taking metamorphosis and turning into a hydra to Power Attack/Improved Trip/Cleave your way through entire battlefields of people. Just make sure you expansion first. :)

If you don't mind losing some Dexterity and a feat, and gaining a point of Level Adjustment (which you can buy off), you could always try half-giant instead.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 01:22:47 AM by Lycanthromancer »
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shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

veovius

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2010, 03:19:29 AM »
STR mod is 8 when raging, without items. A +1 weapon should be present.
So, it's 3d6+12+16+1 per attack.

Bullrush-charge someone into a wall. 3 attacks, taking full PA and reducing AC instead of AB from Shocktrooper.
Using the very appropriate Goliath Greathammer for 3d6 (remember powerful build, using 1 large size weapons and 1 larger size for opposed check when bullrushing).

Bullrush into wall. That's 8d6+3x8. Average 52 damage.
If you hit with your charge attack, you deal average 39,5+ damage. You initate free bullrush from Knockback (getting a +8 bonus from your PA), knock him into the wall again.
Another average 52 damage.

You have pounce and whirling frenzy, so add 2 more attacks and subsequent bullrush attempts.

So let's check the math:
52*4 (1 from the bullrush, 3 from each attack) + 39,5*3.
That's 208+118 if we round fractions down.
A 326 points of damage on average.
This is calculated from you having a +1 weapon and no STR-boosting equipment or anything else that improves it, such as Brute Gauntlets.
Which, as a sidenote, would help you quite nicely when going up against the BBEG.

So, if it's a dungeon crawl let's take advantage of those enclosed spaces.
Smash 'em up the wall and make 'em bleed :devil

Ok, this character might be a bit over the top now when I think about it.
I just love the concept, I can't help myself :p

I think I'm missing something here, but I don't get your math.  Where's the +16 damage coming from in the melee attack?  And what do you mean by 3 attacks?  By level 8 you should have 2 attacks....but you get one more from whirling frenzy?

I'm also not sure of your attack sequence.  You charge for a melee attack, hit, then use knockback + dungeoncrasher to knock him into a wall and deal damage?

I'm asking because I want to lift him off this board straight into a game I'm DMing as a module boss :)  I'm having problems hitting one of my players, a warforged fighter with a ton of shield feats + adamantine body, so this will work out just fine...

Black Knight

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2010, 02:24:37 PM »
Quote
I'm asking because I want to lift him off this board straight into a game I'm DMing as a module boss   I'm having problems hitting one of my players, a warforged fighter with a ton of shield feats + adamantine body, so this will work out just fine...

Got a player you can't hit because of his insane AC?  How about his touch AC?  Normally for a Tank, that is much, much lower than his AC.

You can use a spell or item that grants Wraithstrike or a ToB manuever called Emerald Razor to target his touch AC.  For spell slingers, use ranged touch attacks (like Scorching Ray or Orb of Fire) to really ruin his day.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2010, 02:36:50 PM »
The psychic warrior build I mentioned could do fairly well, especially if given a single level in psychokineticist. Whip touch-attacks that deal fire damage on a trip, then getting another touch attack with a +4 bonus against a prone target would be quite useful here (especially if you're continually draining him of Strength using strength of my enemy). Even better if he has a 16+ Strength or Weapon Finesse.

Ooh. Even better. Use the soulbound weapon variant to call whips, then use it on your fire lash. Yum.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 02:42:27 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Shadowhunter

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2010, 02:46:35 PM »
STR mod is 8 when raging, without items. A +1 weapon should be present.
So, it's 3d6+12+16+1 per attack.

Bullrush-charge someone into a wall. 3 attacks, taking full PA and reducing AC instead of AB from Shocktrooper.
Using the very appropriate Goliath Greathammer for 3d6 (remember powerful build, using 1 large size weapons and 1 larger size for opposed check when bullrushing).

Bullrush into wall. That's 8d6+3x8. Average 52 damage.
If you hit with your charge attack, you deal average 39,5+ damage. You initate free bullrush from Knockback (getting a +8 bonus from your PA), knock him into the wall again.
Another average 52 damage.

You have pounce and whirling frenzy, so add 2 more attacks and subsequent bullrush attempts.

So let's check the math:
52*4 (1 from the bullrush, 3 from each attack) + 39,5*3.
That's 208+118 if we round fractions down.
A 326 points of damage on average.
This is calculated from you having a +1 weapon and no STR-boosting equipment or anything else that improves it, such as Brute Gauntlets.
Which, as a sidenote, would help you quite nicely when going up against the BBEG.

So, if it's a dungeon crawl let's take advantage of those enclosed spaces.
Smash 'em up the wall and make 'em bleed :devil

Ok, this character might be a bit over the top now when I think about it.
I just love the concept, I can't help myself :p

I think I'm missing something here, but I don't get your math.  Where's the +16 damage coming from in the melee attack?  And what do you mean by 3 attacks?  By level 8 you should have 2 attacks....but you get one more from whirling frenzy?

I'm also not sure of your attack sequence.  You charge for a melee attack, hit, then use knockback + dungeoncrasher to knock him into a wall and deal damage?

I'm asking because I want to lift him off this board straight into a game I'm DMing as a module boss :)  I'm having problems hitting one of my players, a warforged fighter with a ton of shield feats + adamantine body, so this will work out just fine...

The +16 damage is the Power Attack bonus doubled, as per normal rules for two-handed gripping and PA.
2 basic attacks due to BAB, yes. As you have guessed, Whirling Frenzy (alternative rage from Unearthed Arcana) only gives you a bonus to STR and not STR and CON, but grants you another attack, all these at -2 to hit.

You do a Bullrush as part of a charge, per the normal rules on page 155.
Since you do both, you resolve the bullrush damage before you make the attack. It happens simultaneously, so you can decide which to "activate" first.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

veovius

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2010, 08:26:10 PM »
Whoa,  I didn't even think about the ramifications of Knockback and Pounce  :bigeye

So....Can you attack/bullrush/knockback 3 times simultaneously?  The only way I could see that flying is if the map looked like : Charger/Target/Wall

Shadowhunter

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2010, 08:56:18 PM »
Naturally, this is only if we can bullrucharge (I'm coning a term here people ;))the target into a wall. Otherwise, what you do is that you charge the target, do your 3 attacks and on the last attack (or the second one if you're not sure that your last attack will hit with the -5) you activate Knockback and bullrush them backwards.

Note that the two other maneuvers that Shock Trooper help, since you can guide how they will be knocked (somewhat at least) and possibly even knock the target into another one and trip them both.

You could name this build "Let's Play Pong" or somesuch...


See, there's so much synergy in this concept it's riddicioulus. :D
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

dark_samuari

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2010, 11:38:10 PM »
Quote
I'm asking because I want to lift him off this board straight into a game I'm DMing as a module boss   I'm having problems hitting one of my players, a warforged fighter with a ton of shield feats + adamantine body, so this will work out just fine...

Got a player you can't hit because of his insane AC?  How about his touch AC?  Normally for a Tank, that is much, much lower than his AC.

You can use a spell or item that grants Wraithstrike or a ToB manuever called Emerald Razor to target his touch AC.  For spell slingers, use ranged touch attacks (like Scorching Ray or Orb of Fire) to really ruin his day.

A single level in warlock can fix this as well when utilizing Eldritch Glaive.

Aliment

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2010, 07:26:00 PM »
Naturally, this is only if we can bullrucharge (I'm coning a term here people ;))the target into a wall. Otherwise, what you do is that you charge the target, do your 3 attacks and on the last attack (or the second one if you're not sure that your last attack will hit with the -5) you activate Knockback and bullrush them backwards.

Note that the two other maneuvers that Shock Trooper help, since you can guide how they will be knocked (somewhat at least) and possibly even knock the target into another one and trip them both.

You could name this build "Let's Play Pong" or somesuch...


See, there's so much synergy in this concept it's riddicioulus. :D

So wait, which would be cooler, 2 of these guys or 1 with a Wizard thats packing wall spells?  Also Pounce+Knockback is just too ridiculous, I've never liked the whole Lion Totem and this is a good reason why.  I need to find a GIF of a guy getting beat into a wall now.
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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2010, 07:32:23 PM »
Naturally, this is only if we can bullrucharge (I'm coning a term here people ;))the target into a wall. Otherwise, what you do is that you charge the target, do your 3 attacks and on the last attack (or the second one if you're not sure that your last attack will hit with the -5) you activate Knockback and bullrush them backwards.

Note that the two other maneuvers that Shock Trooper help, since you can guide how they will be knocked (somewhat at least) and possibly even knock the target into another one and trip them both.

You could name this build "Let's Play Pong" or somesuch...


See, there's so much synergy in this concept it's riddicioulus. :D

So wait, which would be cooler, 2 of these guys or 1 with a Wizard thats packing wall spells?  Also Pounce+Knockback is just too ridiculous, I've never liked the whole Lion Totem and this is a good reason why.  I need to find a GIF of a guy getting beat into a wall now.
One of these guys, and a Wizard cohort readying actions to pop up walls.
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veekie

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Re: So its been ages.... ( Fighter/tank advice wanted )
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2010, 03:07:28 AM »
Whoa,  I didn't even think about the ramifications of Knockback and Pounce  :bigeye

So....Can you attack/bullrush/knockback 3 times simultaneously?  The only way I could see that flying is if the map looked like : Charger/Target/Wall
If you can fly(or just jump that good), you just get above your opponent and start unleashing knockbacks to piledriver him into the floor.
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