Author Topic: Rating the casters as melee fighters  (Read 2994 times)

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OblivionSmurf83

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Rating the casters as melee fighters
« on: June 29, 2010, 04:29:07 AM »
Let's say you had to rate the ability of a Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard to act as a melee combatant, that is, go into melee, take damage, and dish it out. How would you rank each of the classes at their ability to do this? How would they compare to a generic Fighter/Barbarian, or a ToB user for dishing out damage? For taking it?

For the purposes of this discussion, we're obviously including the Druid's animal companion in his ability to act as a melee fighter. Otherwise, I imagine this will just come down to the range of buffing spells available to each class, and perhaps HD.

cru

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2010, 05:39:51 AM »
Druids and wizards have shapechange. Clerics usually not.
Druids and clerics have decent BAB and saves and hp. Wizards usually not.
Clerics and wizards have ways to buff quickly to save actions. Druids usually not.


at lvl 1
wizards wave their canes and die
clerics have best armor (same as fighter), few spells for minor heal or buff
druids have bad str and dex, decent armor and a riding dog to hide behind. together, they have a lot of hp, can flank, trip...

at lvl 5
wizards have.. i don't know what
clerics have great armor and several solid buffs, but no divine power yet
druids don't have natural spell yet, but they do have fleshraker and they can change into one, too

at lvl 10
wizards have polymorph
clerics have divine power
druids have natural spell

at lvl 15
wizards and druids have bite of the werebear on top of everything
clerics have.. dunno

at lvl 20
wizards and druids have shapechange
clerics have miracle for e.g. giant size
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 06:00:33 AM by cru »

Wings of Peace

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2010, 06:17:02 AM »
Are we assuming prestige classes in this?  Because once the Wizard/Sorcerer takes that that level of Spelldancer they're just a few persisted buffs away from being whatever they want.


at lvl 5
wizards have.. i don't know what


Wizard's have Alter Self :)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 06:19:25 AM by Wings of Peace »

OblivionSmurf83

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2010, 06:24:31 AM »
Yes, for the sake of the discussion, you can assume the Wizard has Incantatrix or Spelldancer, and the Cleric and Druid have both gotten DMM (Harder for the Druid, I realise).

Wings of Peace

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2010, 06:34:20 AM »
My money is on the Wizard then.  If more than one prestige class is allowed his only becomes simpler when he acquires Abjurant Champion.

lans

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2010, 11:29:18 AM »
At level 1 an immediate Magic conjurer can avoid 3 or so hits at level 1.
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Cyrocloud

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2010, 12:08:25 PM »
Assuming the Prcs are only there to gain persistent buffs, I'd put my money on the cleric, but poor domain choice could make one of the others better.

Wings of Peace

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2010, 12:29:54 PM »
Assuming the Prcs are only there to gain persistent buffs, I'd put my money on the cleric, but poor domain choice could make one of the others better.

Spelldancers big bonus is that as long as you can heal the con damage you can persist as much as you want, no questions asked.  Where as the usual methods of mass persisting with Cleric will require investment into items like Nightsticks.

Akkristor

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2010, 03:22:45 PM »
If we are going for optimums and prestige class, lets also consider Planar Shepard for the druid.

Aliment

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2010, 10:21:47 PM »
Why don't we let all Full casters into this.  I'm sure the Dread Necro would like in on this, if only for the first few levels.

My bets on the Druid up until some of the really good Polymorph forms come available.  Clerics have heavy armor and lots of nice buffs, but I can never figure out what their supposed to do for damage.
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2010, 11:03:18 PM »
Clerics have heavy armor and lots of nice buffs, but I can never figure out what their supposed to do for damage.

Well, they have easy access to the holy warrior feat (Complete Champion) for a bonus on damage equal to the level of the highest level war domain spell they have available to cast.  Also, ordained champion lets them expend a spell for a bonus to damage equal to the level of the spell +1 for a number of rounds equal to their level in ordained champion.  The class isn't exclusive to clerics, but it works better for them than other classes. 

Brainpiercing

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2010, 07:48:15 AM »
My rankings:

Level 1-5: Druid wins, the others... still suck at melee.
Level 5-10: Early: Druids, late: Cleric; Wizards and sorcs can be anywhere. Stalwart Battlesorc takes honourable mention as a very nice gish-in-a-box. He can also take Abjurant Champion earlier than Wizards.
Level 10-15: Druids peak, Clerics grow, Wizards and sorcs can be anywhere. Obviously changes if you factor in extreme cheese, such as Persistent Divine Power, Righteous Might AND Consumptive Field (at this point the cleric wins by pure brute force, obviously, which the wizard can only -barely- keep up with via Fauxlymorph.)
Level 15-20: early: Druids might still have an edge on clerics who don't use extreme cheese(tm). By level 17 the straight, unprestigeclassed cleric suddenly makes a huge jump and becomes king of the hill IF he was smart enough to invest in two of those spell-immunity daggers. NO, this is NOT as cheesy as persistent consumptive field, because Giant Size is actually a non-cheesy buff. They've also got the most extreme ability boosting buff, as Owl's Insight can be persisted via Hierophant dip. I'm not sure about Wizards at this level.

Epic: Clerics win everything. They can cast every spell, they have the most extreme melee offensive buffs, can cast all the good defensive buffs, and even Shapechange is only a domain away. (They've already got Time Stop via Planning and domain spontaneity.)

Senevri

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2010, 08:53:28 AM »
Well, if you're willing to spend feats... the 'Melee mage' option was heavily discussed for NWN1 which is mostly singleplayer and group-less, and some tactics emerge.

At lv 1 Wizard has magic weapon and mage armor. same BAB as fighter, but probably a wussy AC, although I'd recommend going for TWF so that necessitates a dex bump. You're dependent on four good stats, though, although 14 should do for physicals (except maybe dex if items do not count.

At level 3, you get Alter Self (+7 nat AC in core, IIRC. Stacks with mage armor.), animal buffs, and Mirror Image or as I like to call it, 'immunity to melee'. 
I think this is when you get Flame Dagger outside core, too.

At level 5 - hey, Haste. TWF with magic weapons with elemental damage and whatnot.

The one thing restricting a melee mage is casting time. War Weaver is a great Prestige.

Suin Bahhar

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2010, 10:13:43 AM »
As said the earlier levels of a druid their companion compare really favorable in melee. In core, Druids make good charger builds, as they get acces to pounce through feline wildshapes from level 5 and on. From level 9 and on, if properly buffed, druids and their pets can withstand a lot of damage through Stoneskin. At higher levels they can powerattack charge in a large tiger shape and get 5 attacks in, after his companion has teared the target a new one.

Clerics start emulating and out damaging regular fighters at level 7 and up, solely through having Powerattack and Divine Power, untill then they are largely defensive through high AC and the occasional selfheal. Clerics have numerous ways to get temporary HP (Aid, Divine Power), which are preferable over CON bumped extra HP as they don't have to be "paid" if the buff runs out. Combine those temporary HP with numerous STR buffs, attack bonusses, size increases and built in ways to overcome damage resistance and it becomes clear Clerics are made to be "in your face" melee types.

Wizards have a harder time withstanding damage, but are the kings at making melee seem a laughable strategy by getting numerous ways of mobility or concealment. If they strategize to be in melee themselves they'll have to rely on other ways to get high melee damage than powerattack, typically by doing ability damage or an elemental damage of some kind while surprizing and eluding counterattacks of the enemy with invisiblilty. Forcing enemies into lose-lose situations is another option arcane casters have; by going into melee with a Fireshield up, including a stoneskin and blocking escape with a fire/stone/ice/force walls, enemies are doomed if they exchange blows with the mage in melee and will get punished by regular mage spells when they try ignore him. I think the hoops the wizard needs to jump are too numerous and high to really make them shine as melee characters in Core. A sorcerer has a slight advantage over the mage in melee, largely because of its simple weaponproficiency (and acces to the excellent spear) and their higher number of spells per day.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 10:23:24 AM by Suin Bahhar »

Arz

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2010, 02:40:00 PM »
Good summary cru and suin !

Only additional point is sor/wiz also have familiars. Familiars and companions near double the effectiveness of your spells. I just adore share spell.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2010, 02:54:05 PM »
No one mentioned Wraithstrike? Wizards get that at level 3. At level 7, they can be Wraithstriking hydras with Power Attack and Mirror Image...

Or they can be wraithstriking annis hags with power attack riding a wraithstriking hydra (their familiar, maybe also with Power Attack, if they used Heroics to get it), both with Mirror Image.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Eardatch

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2010, 03:54:45 PM »
Can't wizards get Giant Size just as easily as Clerics with Wish? Or were we assuming Dweomerkeeper?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2010, 03:56:15 PM »
Can't wizards get Giant Size just as easily as Clerics with Wish? Or were we assuming Dweomerkeeper?
If they like paying 5000 XP per casting, they can. Clerics can emulate spells via Miracle with no XP cost. (That's one of the first things I house ruled away...)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Eardatch

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Re: Rating the casters as melee fighters
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2010, 04:22:22 PM »
Can't wizards get Giant Size just as easily as Clerics with Wish? Or were we assuming Dweomerkeeper?
If they like paying 5000 XP per casting, they can. Clerics can emulate spells via Miracle with no XP cost. (That's one of the first things I house ruled away...)
Well I'll be, never read that line in the spell. What a crock.