In Defense of the Monk ...

[veekie]

My original point was that the Monk (and the Rogue) can be seen as the 'harder' difficulty melee class, skill-wise, as they have increased options at the cost of weaker base numbers.

What options?

Beat me to it.
The monk HAS no options, compared to the Fighter.
Theres hardly any feats he can make good use of in core either. Quite a few of the decent melee feats require a decent BAB(which he doesn't have), a high to hit(which he doesn't have either), high singular stat(nada, MAD city) or being a fighter.

Stunning Fist is about all hes got.

[Senevri]

My original point was that the Monk (and the Rogue) can be seen as the 'harder' difficulty melee class, skill-wise, as they have increased options at the cost of weaker base numbers.

What options?

Well, in theory. Mainly they have increased mobility, a few special attack options, are supposed to be less gear reliant (although if a DM allows a slotless weapon enchantment, that's really lovely for monks) and... that's about it. But, even that gives a surprising amount of options:
- they can attempt to appear helpless, as they aren't carrying weapons
- Climbing is very low-risk for them (the fact that everyone and their dog gets, or rather MUST get Fly isn't the monk class's fault)
- They can stun opponents, which also disarms automatically. (again, not their fault many things are immune)
- They have stealth options.
What can you do with this? Well, a Monk makes an excellent scout, at +30ft speed they can be in stealth practically perpetually. They can stun opposition just before the less-protected damage monster reaches them, get squishy allies out of trouble, and so forth.
Also, a great jumping ability is FUN.

Really, the biggest problem in class design is that the numbers tend to be a bit too small - stun probability, hit chance, AC, damage potential - a bit too low. Thus, exceptional stats partially 'fix' monk. What monk does isn't all that bad - the problem is, the things he's supposed to do, he's usually not too good at... which DOES add to the difficulty of playing a monk.
Mechanically, Abundant Step and Empty Body are the dumbest abilities as they duplicate spells in a really limited fashion, and aren't even really that flavorful. Wholeness of Body can be used to keep subdual damage from strenous activity in check, tongue of sun and moon is a lot of fun (although just a bit random, but more-or-less flavorful) and Perfect Self is surprisingly useful, as most opponents at that point are creatures with some other DR than magic (and it also negates impact damage a bit.)

Well, an Unarmed Swordsage mostly works as a drop-in replacement, but that's not here nor there. *shrug*
Also, Pathfinder's Monk is much more comparable to other melee classes as it effectively has full BAB on Monk skills and PF added a bunch of things for melee characters to do.

[Solo]

Allow me to propose several counterpoints.

- they can attempt to appear helpless, as they aren't carrying weapons

Sorcerer.

- Climbing is very low-risk for them (the fact that everyone and their dog gets, or rather MUST get Fly isn't the monk class's fault)

Sorcerer

- They can stun opponents, which also disarms automatically. (again, not their fault many things are immune)

Sorcerer

- They have stealth options.

Sorcerer

What can you do with this? Well, a Monk makes an excellent scout, at +30ft speed they can be in stealth practically perpetually.

Sorcerer

They can stun opposition just before the less-protected damage monster reaches them, get squishy allies out of trouble, and so forth.

Sorcerer

Also, a great jumping ability is FUN.

Sorcerer

[Senevri]

Allow me to propose several counterpoints.

Yeah... now you're just being silly. It does point out that a sorcerer is easier than a monk, with the caveat that building a sorcerer is trickier than building a monk, if one cares of such things.

[Solo]

The Monk does have to choose between Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist, you know.

As well as putting skill points into Climb and the stealth skills.

[Senevri]

The Monk does have to choose between Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist, you know.

As well as putting skill points into Climb and the stealth skills.

Fair point. I'd go so far as to say that monks are so skill-starved that... well, only Charisma is a dump stat, basically.

[Korwin]

I like the concept of the Monk, but not the abomination thats in the PHP...

So how comes, nobody posted/linked Frank & K's Monk?

Its a fix replacement (IMHO a reasonable) for the Monk class.

[Solo]

Cause Unarmed Swordsages exist.

[RobbyPants]

I think it's a good fix, but it wasn't mentioned because the thread wasn't originally about rewriting the monk; it was about defending its design.

[Bozwevial]

Cause Unarmed Swordsages exist.

Also because Tome Monks are intended for a different balance point.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah.  Unarmed swordsage takes "monks" off of the bottom of the non-caster power level.  The Tome monk puts monks closer to casters.

[fencediddy]

I am not a perfect optimizer by any means but all I can think of at this point is what type of games the monk is supposed to be in. If you are playing in a high power high magic realm with access to all supplements 3.0 and above the monk loses his effectiveness because of his limited options to branch out and multiclass.

  If you introduce your optimizing party to a 3d6 6 times for stats no rerolls, LOW to NO magic items realm, as the game was based of of LOTR origanally and the only magic there was a bunch of rings of Dominate one ring of invisibility and a shining dagger. along with the epic staff of Flashlight, then you would be singing a different story.

  If you have a game like that where you are getting the EPIC +1 longsword as opposed to the EPIC +20 Cleaver of Stunning Death Vorpal Energy. You may have a different opinion of someone who can add 2 stats to AC and still move full speed+. Someone who can heal themselves where the most healing you normally get is from the Heal Skill.   

In Games of High power high magic Monks loose their place because so many things do replace them. In the game as written though I see someone with a great selection of diverse powers whose DC's to negate arent all that small because not everybody and their mother has a ring of resistance +5 and 18's across the board.

The classes you play depend on the world you play in.  Just think if you started from LvL 1 in the game as written in a world where Magic users were hunted and killed on sight.  bet you wouldnt be casting ray of frost and faerie fire in the middle of town would you let alone teleport and fly.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Nah, casters rock even harder in low magic settings.

[archangel.arcanis]

I am not a perfect optimizer by any means but all I can think of at this point is what type of games the monk is supposed to be in. If you are playing in a high power high magic realm with access to all supplements 3.0 and above the monk loses his effectiveness because of his limited options to branch out and multiclass.

  If you introduce your optimizing party to a 3d6 6 times for stats no rerolls, LOW to NO magic items realm, as the game was based of of LOTR origanally and the only magic there was a bunch of rings of Dominate one ring of invisibility and a shining dagger. along with the epic staff of Flashlight, then you would be singing a different story.

  If you have a game like that where you are getting the EPIC +1 longsword as opposed to the EPIC +20 Cleaver of Stunning Death Vorpal Energy. You may have a different opinion of someone who can add 2 stats to AC and still move full speed+. Someone who can heal themselves where the most healing you normally get is from the Heal Skill.   

In Games of High power high magic Monks loose their place because so many things do replace them. In the game as written though I see someone with a great selection of diverse powers whose DC's to negate arent all that small because not everybody and their mother has a ring of resistance +5 and 18's across the board.

The classes you play depend on the world you play in.  Just think if you started from LvL 1 in the game as written in a world where Magic users were hunted and killed on sight.  bet you wouldnt be casting ray of frost and faerie fire in the middle of town would you let alone teleport and fly.

The problem is that in a standard world that uses just the core assumptions about the game, Monks can't keep up. In you low powered world example they still suck unless you use a system that generates good stats for them. They just don't have the tools they need to keep up once you get past about 6th level. Also you are not thinking about what happens with a monk vs a monster from the MM. Monks need magic to be anything more than a mook vs many opponents. Monster flies, monk dies; Monster has distance, monk dies; Monster has high strength, monk gets splattered. The only world that the monk class as written is a good class is one in which magic is forced to suck but stat generation is very generous. Even then the DM has to not use monsters that take advantage of the PC's not having good ranged options or AC due to the lack of magic items.

[Solo]

  If you introduce your optimizing party to a 3d6 6 times for stats no rerolls, LOW to NO magic items realm, as the game was based of of LOTR origanally and the only magic there was a bunch of rings of Dominate one ring of invisibility and a shining dagger. along with the epic staff of Flashlight, then you would be singing a different story.

Wizard: I assign my highest stat to INT, pump it, and proceed to spank the laws of Physics harder than I do my gimp at an orgy.

[PhaedrusXY]

No offense Fencediddy, but you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about. Wizards WTFPWN everything in "low magic" "low ability score" games. Monks suck MUCH worse in such systems than they do in "everything goes" games, because monks actually need more magic items and splatbook abilities to be effective than casters do. Most of the most broken abilities in the game are right in the Player's Handbook. Just look at the spells in the back, and the druid class.

[archangel.arcanis]

No offense Fencediddy, but you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about. Wizards WTFPWN everything in "low magic" "low ability score" games. Monks suck MUCH worse in such systems than they do in "everything goes" games, because monks actually need more magic items and splatbook abilities to be effective than casters do. Most of the most broken abilities in the game are right in the Player's Handbook. Just look at the spells in the back, and the druid class.

I think i can condense your post for you: Logic Fail!
alternatively you have the choice of: D&D Comprehension Fail!

I think that will concisely make the point of your post. 

[PhaedrusXY]

That actually was the condensed version... I had a much longer post typed up, and deleted it because I figured I was wasting my breath... People who think monks are actually better in low magic, low stat games have no comprehension of how D&D actually works at all.

[Hallack]

I just do not get how you guys are always going on about how monks suck, especially in low magic stat games.  I take it you've never played them in such scenarios or you would have a much different opinion.  Dudes, go play the game and see how it really works. 









 

[weenog]

I just do not get how you guys are always going on about how monks suck, especially in low magic stat games.  I take it you've never played them in such scenarios or you would have a much different opinion.  Dudes, go play the game and see how it really works.

Done so.  I even got the advantage over the rest of natural lycanthrope (black bear) without having to pay for the HD or LA.  Only things that made me remotely worthwhile were the damage reduction, and scent + blind-fight, neither of which are monk abilities.  The even level split elf fighter/wizard (aiming for fighter 10/wizard 10) was better than me in any situation where we could see and the damage coming in wasn't dozens of tiny hits each round.

I think you actually mean low competence games, not low stat and magic games.  When nobody knows what the hell they're doing, the monk seems like it's doing okay because nobody's doing okay, so it doesn't stick out.  When folks have some idea which end is up, even if they are deliberately handicapping themselves, even a free template boosting all the scores a monk cares about won't make monk itself any good.  I could've done so much more with a rogue, there.