Author Topic: In Defense of the Monk ...  (Read 15446 times)

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weenog

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2010, 12:19:41 AM »
Didn't mean to raise the ToB issue, sorry.  I'm not aiming to advertise the book.  Unarmed Swordsage was just the first thing that came to mind, to which a fist-fighting character fan might turn when the party is kicking its performance up a notch or two, and which isn't a true monster but does considerably outclass the monk.
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wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2010, 12:25:41 AM »
that's cool.
I think that we are well past the original intent of this post, as my original issue has long-since been resolved.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Bozwevial

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2010, 01:18:31 AM »
well, it is explicitly admitted to in the book's intro (so it's not just "supposed" -- it's intentional by design).  meh -- not that big a deal to me.

It admits it's taking a step away from Western fantasy, not necessarily that it's aiming for an anime feel.
Are we reading the same sidebar?  p.6.  (not that it's important)

Yes, we are. The word anime is used once as an example of one influence, not an overarching design goal.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2010, 01:37:40 AM »
That's one complaint.

The other is that the book (like most other WotC books) is chocked full of crap options that you have to sift through to find the few gems worth taking.  That, combined with the fact that you have to plan out your entire maneuver selection for all levels you expect to play so as you can meet the prereqs, makes it a pain in the ass for the DM to make martial adept NPCs at mid and higher levels.

Don't get me wrong: I love the book, and love martial adepts if I'm going to play a melee character, but it's not a very newbie friendly book.
No fucking kidding. I say this having made NPCs as a total ToB newb. It was incredibly painful... Fuck prereqs.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2010, 01:50:21 AM »
well, it is explicitly admitted to in the book's intro (so it's not just "supposed" -- it's intentional by design).  meh -- not that big a deal to me.

It admits it's taking a step away from Western fantasy, not necessarily that it's aiming for an anime feel.
Are we reading the same sidebar?  p.6.  (not that it's important)

Yes, we are. The word anime is used once as an example of one influence, not an overarching design goal.
fair enough.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Bozwevial

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2010, 02:07:35 AM »
That's one complaint.

The other is that the book (like most other WotC books) is chocked full of crap options that you have to sift through to find the few gems worth taking.  That, combined with the fact that you have to plan out your entire maneuver selection for all levels you expect to play so as you can meet the prereqs, makes it a pain in the ass for the DM to make martial adept NPCs at mid and higher levels.

Don't get me wrong: I love the book, and love martial adepts if I'm going to play a melee character, but it's not a very newbie friendly book.
No fucking kidding. I say this having made NPCs as a total ToB newb. It was incredibly painful... Fuck prereqs.
Someone should really write a program for this or something.

Littha

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2010, 02:15:01 AM »
I might look into it but I don't want to get sued by WotC

wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2010, 02:15:55 AM »
That's one complaint.

The other is that the book (like most other WotC books) is chocked full of crap options that you have to sift through to find the few gems worth taking.  That, combined with the fact that you have to plan out your entire maneuver selection for all levels you expect to play so as you can meet the prereqs, makes it a pain in the ass for the DM to make martial adept NPCs at mid and higher levels.

Don't get me wrong: I love the book, and love martial adepts if I'm going to play a melee character, but it's not a very newbie friendly book.
No fucking kidding. I say this having made NPCs as a total ToB newb. It was incredibly painful... Fuck prereqs.
Someone should really write a program for this or something.
... or at least a flowchart, or a feat-tree like thing, or something

I might look into it but I don't want to get sued by WotC
well, how much of it is "open content"?
are they even pursuing those interests anymore? (I had read somewhere that they're leaving it alone as long as you're not out to make a profit -- but I could be dead wrong about that)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 02:18:56 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

RobbyPants

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2010, 09:37:17 AM »
That's one complaint.

The other is that the book (like most other WotC books) is chocked full of crap options that you have to sift through to find the few gems worth taking.  That, combined with the fact that you have to plan out your entire maneuver selection for all levels you expect to play so as you can meet the prereqs, makes it a pain in the ass for the DM to make martial adept NPCs at mid and higher levels.

Don't get me wrong: I love the book, and love martial adepts if I'm going to play a melee character, but it's not a very newbie friendly book.
No fucking kidding. I say this having made NPCs as a total ToB newb. It was incredibly painful... Fuck prereqs.
Honestly, I think they could function just fine along side of casters without prereqs.  You could make a balls-to-the-walls martial adept ignoring prereqs, and it still wouldn't be anything crazy.

I don't think the maneuver prereqs add enough to the game to justify the headache they cause.
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[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2010, 04:24:22 PM »
That's one complaint.

The other is that the book (like most other WotC books) is chocked full of crap options that you have to sift through to find the few gems worth taking.  That, combined with the fact that you have to plan out your entire maneuver selection for all levels you expect to play so as you can meet the prereqs, makes it a pain in the ass for the DM to make martial adept NPCs at mid and higher levels.

Don't get me wrong: I love the book, and love martial adepts if I'm going to play a melee character, but it's not a very newbie friendly book.
No fucking kidding. I say this having made NPCs as a total ToB newb. It was incredibly painful... Fuck prereqs.
Honestly, I think they could function just fine along side of casters without prereqs.  You could make a balls-to-the-walls martial adept ignoring prereqs, and it still wouldn't be anything crazy.

I don't think the maneuver prereqs add enough to the game to justify the headache they cause.

Plus fucking one. A wizard doesn't need to have ever learned a transmutation spell in his life to pick up Disintegrate and start slinging it around.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2010, 04:32:27 PM »
That's one complaint.

The other is that the book (like most other WotC books) is chocked full of crap options that you have to sift through to find the few gems worth taking.  That, combined with the fact that you have to plan out your entire maneuver selection for all levels you expect to play so as you can meet the prereqs, makes it a pain in the ass for the DM to make martial adept NPCs at mid and higher levels.

Don't get me wrong: I love the book, and love martial adepts if I'm going to play a melee character, but it's not a very newbie friendly book.
No fucking kidding. I say this having made NPCs as a total ToB newb. It was incredibly painful... Fuck prereqs.
Honestly, I think they could function just fine along side of casters without prereqs.  You could make a balls-to-the-walls martial adept ignoring prereqs, and it still wouldn't be anything crazy.

I don't think the maneuver prereqs add enough to the game to justify the headache they cause.

Plus fucking one. A wizard doesn't need to have ever learned a transmutation spell in his life to pick up Disintegrate and start slinging it around.
You know... I think I'm going to use this as a house rule in my games starting right now.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2010, 04:45:30 PM »
I house ruled that as soon as I got the book, it runs much smoother without them. Also bumped the crusaders stances to the right levels.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2010, 05:21:53 PM »
I house ruled that as soon as I got the book, it runs much smoother without them. Also bumped the crusaders stances to the right levels.
That's good to know... since I'm playing a character with martial adept levels in one of your games. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2010, 05:41:49 PM »
Oh yea... been doing it so long that I tend to forget about it though

TomeWyrm

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2010, 03:22:49 PM »
I might look into it but I don't want to get sued by WotC
well, how much of it is "open content"?
are they even pursuing those interests anymore? (I had read somewhere that they're leaving it alone as long as you're not out to make a profit -- but I could be dead wrong about that)
It's my opinion, it can't be right or wrong, it just exists.

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Amechra

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2010, 04:32:41 AM »
<Minor Necromancy>

I have figured out one thing a monk does better than other noncasters in core: ranged attacks.

If you look at Flurry of Blows, they can flurry with Shuriken. Meaning that while other people are left with just 1 ranged attack in a round, Monks can have 3 at 11th level.

Consider that in terms of poisons...

Anyway, your probably going to give me a good reason why this isn't the case, but a ranged Monk would be interesting to see.
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On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

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Slaughterhouserock

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2010, 07:11:56 AM »
<Minor Necromancy>

I have figured out one thing a monk does better than other noncasters in core: ranged attacks.

If you look at Flurry of Blows, they can flurry with Shuriken. Meaning that while other people are left with just 1 ranged attack in a round, Monks can have 3 at 11th level.

Consider that in terms of poisons...

Anyway, your probably going to give me a good reason why this isn't the case, but a ranged Monk would be interesting to see.

Why would other classes only have one ranged attack at level 11?  Any full BAB class would also get three if full attacking and have a better attack bonus(and most likely better damage) than the monk on top of that.
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RobbyPants

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2010, 09:19:37 AM »
And with Manyshot, you can fire three at 11th level and still move.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2010, 10:36:04 AM »
tl;dr.
I claim dis: I'm referring here to 3.5 Monk mainly.
I've always been of the opinion that IN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY the monk can be just fine. But then, so is the fighter.

Monk is kinda like the bard, in that it requires a degree of optimization-savvy to be relevant in gameplay.
Also, when stats are rolled, not bought, if you happen to get a couple of eighteens and a sixteen or two,
a Monk can be quite fun, since high stats cover it's natural weaknesses quite well.

There are certain expectations in the genre, that are 'wrong' from a gamist perspective, but could make sense if
the classes were instead balanced in relation to gameplay skill required. Hm.

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veekie

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2010, 11:38:23 AM »
And with Manyshot, you can fire three at 11th level and still move.
I think if they let flurry work on a standard action and either gave them full BAB and/or some exotic powers to make it up...
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