Author Topic: In Defense of the Monk ...  (Read 15447 times)

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Littha

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2010, 02:31:04 AM »
considering they can cast silence I wouldn't doubt it.

wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2010, 03:30:46 AM »
Thinking inside the box is not usually described as a merit. :P
touche   :P

 :ahem wait a minute ...
I was calling the designers inside-the-box thinkers.
My group simply understands what that box looks like.
I mean -- you wouldn't try to play Axis and Allies on a Risk board, would you?  :p



See, the problem I have with this argument is that "harassing enemy spellcasters" is not a valid role, at least in comparison to the other roles.
Quote
Classes should not be designed to fill niche roles, they'd damn well better be capable of dealing with lots of things.
But in what context?  If the party already has all the primary roles covered (e.g., the 4 "iconic" classes), then all that is left is niches and support.
Also, just because a class is designed to do a specific thing, doesn't mean that it doesn't have some transferable skills.  Additionally, the whole idea of being a "secondary" this, or a "back-up" that, necessarily means that you are not as good at it as someone else -- otherwise, you'd be the "primary".
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 03:38:28 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Littha

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2010, 03:32:10 AM »
you could emulate WW2 on a risk board however.

Solo

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2010, 03:35:13 AM »
When Hitler exhausted his troops invading Russia, the Russians waited for three turns amassing a huge number of troops from their many territories before engaging in a massive counterattack.

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weenog

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2010, 03:39:03 AM »
I don't know about you, but I fight down my schizoid tendencies and play human-run games instead of CPU-controlled games because I find it quite lame to limit what I do to just what the designers expected me to.

When I want to follow the expectations like a good little drone, I play something like Tales of Symphonia instead.
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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2010, 04:01:14 AM »
When Hitler exhausted his troops invading Russia, the Russians waited for three turns amassing a huge number of troops from their many territories before engaging in a massive counterattack.
The Australians were entrenched, taking on ridiculous odds as the invaders hopped across southeast asia, resisted by stinging counterattacks from the continents.
Supply lines were stretched thin.

Meanwhile, the Soviet war machine annexed China and began to amass a tsunami of troops to overwhelm the world.
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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2010, 04:18:31 AM »
See, the problem I have with this argument is that "harassing enemy spellcasters" is not a valid role, at least in comparison to the other roles.
Quote
Classes should not be designed to fill niche roles, they'd damn well better be capable of dealing with lots of things.
But in what context?  If the party already has all the primary roles covered (e.g., the 4 "iconic" classes), then all that is left is niches and support.
Also, just because a class is designed to do a specific thing, doesn't mean that it doesn't have some transferable skills.  Additionally, the whole idea of being a "secondary" this, or a "back-up" that, necessarily means that you are not as good at it as someone else -- otherwise, you'd be the "primary".

Support is arguably contained under the leader role. Ideally, classes would fill a primary role while still bringing something unique to the table. That way, doubling up on a role wouldn't be stepping on each other's toes so much because you'd provide additional benefit to the party. Creating something that's designed to be second-best at everything, great at nothing is just unsatisfying for the player and his companions.

wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2010, 04:50:53 AM »
See, the problem I have with this argument is that "harassing enemy spellcasters" is not a valid role, at least in comparison to the other roles.
Quote
Classes should not be designed to fill niche roles, they'd damn well better be capable of dealing with lots of things.
But in what context?  If the party already has all the primary roles covered (e.g., the 4 "iconic" classes), then all that is left is niches and support.
Also, just because a class is designed to do a specific thing, doesn't mean that it doesn't have some transferable skills.  Additionally, the whole idea of being a "secondary" this, or a "back-up" that, necessarily means that you are not as good at it as someone else -- otherwise, you'd be the "primary".

Support is arguably contained under the leader role. Ideally, classes would fill a primary role while still bringing something unique to the table. That way, doubling up on a role wouldn't be stepping on each other's toes so much because you'd provide additional benefit to the party. Creating something that's designed to be second-best at everything, great at nothing is just unsatisfying for the player and his companions.
Eh.  I guess I see (and thus concede) your point. 
I have just never personally witnessed any issues.  but whatever  :shrug
thanks  :)


@Solo:
I just now got your Giacomo reference. :eh
Don't get me wrong -- I am in no way a monk "fan-boy", not by any stretch of the imagination; but I do have to admit that my in-game experiences aren't that far from where he's at.  I have to say, I do at least empathize with many of his sentiments (and monk is just the tip of the iceberg)
Who would have thought that you would have been the one to provided a relevant reference that shows this whole thread redundant (albeit unwittingly through your normal spamming and trolling :p). 


@ weenog:
Alright, dude -- you can drop your b.s. condescension any time now.  I tried ignoring it at first, but now it's getting a little much.


@ everyone else:
thanks for the input.  I genuinely was trying to understand all the monk hate (I ran across quite a few threads the last few days, and I just had to try to hash this out).
looks like I'll just have to accept that this is yet just another example of where my group's experiences differ from "conventional wisdom".
Oh well.  :cheers

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

RobbyPants

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2010, 09:30:50 AM »
@ everyone else:
thanks for the input.  I genuinely was trying to understand all the monk hate (I ran across quite a few threads the last few days, and I just had to try to hash this out).
looks like I'll just have to accept that this is yet just another example of where my group's experiences differ from "conventional wisdom".
Oh well.  :cheers
It's like what you said earlier about taking things at face value.  If a group of players both:

1) plays the game the way the designers intended, and

2) doesn't go too far into double digit levels

you'll find that the game is much more balanced than if you read rules literally and employ various CO/TO tricks.  I've run successful games with a caster and non-caster side-by-side, but that was largely because the caster liked blasting more than anything else, so she wasn't realizing her full potential.  Also, because the line between RAW and RAI is so arbitrary (and up to each individual's own interpretation), you'll end up with two people looking at the same situation, with one calling it common sense and the other calling it cheezy munchkin crap.

I'm glad you and your group have found a good way to play where everyone agrees on what is and isn't acceptable.  Ultimately, this is a game, and if your group can get on the same page like that, then you're certainly not having wrongbadfun.

But yeah, other than that, monks suck. :p :D
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weenog

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2010, 11:00:26 AM »
Personally, I found the Axis and Allies/Risk remark rather condescending.  You may not have intended it this way, but it looked like implying the players who don't stick to the bland, limited niches that comprise the designers' box aren't playing D&D, they're just using a D&D board.

I for one happen to play because I like having lots of options and D&D 3.5 provides them; if I didn't want the flexibility I wouldn't play something that requires putting up with other people.  An implication that I'm doing it wrong because I'm playing the game that's there instead of the game somebody else thinks I should play isn't going to make me much friendlier.  I could probably stand to have more tact, though, pity about the Cha dump stat.

Regarding monk hate...

Calling the monk a good party contributer alongside members of the more effective classes as long as people respect the box, seems a little like calling brass knuckles a good weapon alongside knives and guns, as long as nobody unsheathes their knife or loads their gun.  If everyone's satisfied to fight like that, great.  If on the other hand someone opts to use the sharp edge of the blade or put bullets in the gun, the knuckles are exposed as a waste of space, and that sucks for everybody.  What is defensible about a weapon that either requires all the other participants to remain satisfied playing nowhere near what they're actually capable of, or leaves its wielder feeling small in the pants when the others get serious and he's not capable of doing the same? I don't see anything worth defending, there.  Who wants to be stuck being the party's gimpy cheerleader?  Who wants to never explore the full extent of their options because doing so would leave a friend feeling inadequate?
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Solo

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2010, 11:26:28 AM »
@Solo:
I just now got your Giacomo reference. :eh
Don't get me wrong -- I am in no way a monk "fan-boy", not by any stretch of the imagination; but I do have to admit that my in-game experiences aren't that far from where he's at.  I have to say, I do at least empathize with many of his sentiments (and monk is just the tip of the iceberg)
Who would have thought that you would have been the one to provided a relevant reference that shows this whole thread redundant (albeit unwittingly through your normal spamming and trolling :p).  
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 11:30:45 AM by Solo »

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Havok4

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2010, 11:45:33 AM »
Creating something that's designed to be second-best at everything, great at nothing is just unsatisfying for the player and his companions.

With the possible exception of the factotum, although that class is the greatest skill user in the game.

wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2010, 02:20:34 PM »
It's like what you said earlier about taking things at face value.
[...]
 Also, because the line between RAW and RAI is so arbitrary (and up to each individual's own interpretation), you'll end up with two people looking at the same situation, with one calling it common sense and the other calling it cheezy munchkin crap.
:thumb


Personally, I found the Axis and Allies/Risk remark rather condescending.  You may not have intended it this way, but it looked like implying the players who don't stick to the bland, limited niches that comprise the designers' box aren't playing D&D, they're just using a D&D board.
my bad -- evidently that came across entirely the wrong way.  :sorry
I was simply making a neutral observation as to the point of if your game falls outside of the basic assumptions/expectations of the designers, then it's gonna work differently than they happen to have intended.  (apparently I used a bad analogy)
Quote
I for one happen to play because I like having lots of options and D&D 3.5 provides them; if I didn't want the flexibility I wouldn't play something that requires putting up with other people.  An implication that I'm doing it wrong because I'm playing the game that's there instead of the game somebody else thinks I should play isn't going to make me much friendlier.  I could probably stand to have more tact, though, pity about the Cha dump stat.
As long as you're getting the results that you want (generally speaking), then I don't think that you can do it wrong.
(of course, the way you continue to characterize things seems to be a bit hypocritical).


Creating something that's designed to be second-best at everything, great at nothing is just unsatisfying for the player and his companions.

With the possible exception of the factotum, although that class is the greatest skill user in the game.
Speaking of factotum ... now there's a class that, to me, reads rather shitty; though the addition of FoI definitely appears to make it salvageable.
But, I've never had a chance to see it in play, so I really can't make any honest judgments (though I would definitely love to actually see one in action).
Of course, I also use to be disparaging about daily re-rolls, until I had a PC prove me dead wrong (of course, he's got like 5-6 a day at this point; but whatever).
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 02:22:12 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

weenog

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2010, 07:17:02 PM »
I don't mean to claim that the players or DM are doing it wrong for liking or using the monk class.  That would be fairly hypocritical of me, I've used and had some fun with a couple monk multiclass blends, myself.  Reviewing my own analogy, I suppose I can see how it would look that way, though that wasn't my intent either.  The guys running around clubbing people with knife pommels or gun grips are still hurting people with tools designed to hurt people, they aren't, strictly speaking, doing it wrong -- they're just doing it far less efficiently than what those weapons are capable of at their best.  If/when they opt to go for more efficient use, the guy with the brass knucks probably winds up looking and feeling bad, because he can't accomplish anything like as much as they can.

What I think is important is to acknowledge, even if you like and use monks, that the monk is not in fact a very effective class.  It's just not very good.  The reason I think this is important to acknowledge, even if you don't do much with it, is because it helps to avoid batshit insane misguided reasoning later.  Using another poorly-designed and unpopular class as an example, fighter gets wrongly used as a measuring stick way too often by people that don't accept that it's a bad class.  I wouldn't presume to know exact numbers, nor global proportions, but at least among the posters here, I feel safe to say more of us have heard "That splatbook/prestige class is overpowered, it's WAY better than the fighter" from a DM than haven't.  That's absurd, and it shouldn't ever be a reason somebody can't play what they'd like to.

Getting back to the monk, what happens if you start a new game and the usual suspects decide to try getting a bit more out of their usual styles, and the fist-fighting fan decides he wants to give unarmed swordsage a go?  If monk is accepted as a good class and valid measuring stick, what's the brawling initiator when measured against it?
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wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2010, 09:48:15 PM »
@ weenog:
 :drunk



side note: my group has concluded that ToB belongs in ToB-only games.
why do I have this sneaking suspicion that I'm about to have a total shit-storm rain down on me over that one? :scared

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Bozwevial

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2010, 10:32:55 PM »
Everyone who complains about the ToB to me usually blames the supposed anime feel.  :rollseyes

wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2010, 10:47:57 PM »
Everyone who complains about the ToB to me usually blames the supposed anime feel.  :rollseyes
well, it is explicitly admitted to in the book's intro (so it's not just "supposed" -- it's intentional by design).  meh -- not that big a deal to me.

for me, it's a systemic issue.  it really is a different system (and is called-out as being such in the text); which makes sense, since they later came out and admitted that it was basically the beta-test for 4e (and no, that's not edition-war hate -- just demonstrating that my perception has reality-based support).
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not hating on ToB (it's actually a pretty cool concept).  It just doesn't really do anything for me.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

RobbyPants

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2010, 11:07:24 PM »
That's one complaint.

The other is that the book (like most other WotC books) is chocked full of crap options that you have to sift through to find the few gems worth taking.  That, combined with the fact that you have to plan out your entire maneuver selection for all levels you expect to play so as you can meet the prereqs, makes it a pain in the ass for the DM to make martial adept NPCs at mid and higher levels.

Don't get me wrong: I love the book, and love martial adepts if I'm going to play a melee character, but it's not a very newbie friendly book.
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[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2010, 11:32:44 PM »
well, it is explicitly admitted to in the book's intro (so it's not just "supposed" -- it's intentional by design).  meh -- not that big a deal to me.

It admits it's taking a step away from Western fantasy, not necessarily that it's aiming for an anime feel. Besides, flavour is mutable, so I don't see why everyone's bitching.

wotmaniac

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Re: In Defense of the Monk ...
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2010, 12:10:40 AM »
well, it is explicitly admitted to in the book's intro (so it's not just "supposed" -- it's intentional by design).  meh -- not that big a deal to me.

It admits it's taking a step away from Western fantasy, not necessarily that it's aiming for an anime feel.
Are we reading the same sidebar?  p.6.  (not that it's important)

Quote
Besides, flavour is mutable, so I don't see why everyone's bitching.
good point.
However, I can see how someone might perceive that it plays like wuxia (regardless of fluff).
But your right -- it still doesn't warrant a bitch-fit. 

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.