Author Topic: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit  (Read 2987 times)

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Sobolev

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Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« on: June 22, 2010, 08:12:40 PM »
Hey guys,

First some info about me, I play a decent amount but hardly ever make middle let alone high levels, so my experience dries up fast above fifth level.  Therefore anything I suggest that sounds totally crazy just let me know.  However, I think I've finally joined a group that make actually like, play regularly so hopefully this is a thing of the past.  Hence my current project!

Secondly, this character isn't for a real game yet, it's just sort of something I want to have in my back pocket in case a game comes along.  However, I almost always play with the same people so I'm going to present the usual rules and assume I'll be able to adapt from there.

Usual Rules:
Games start at level 1, with either 25 or 32 point buy.  Wizards books are allowed, Dragon Magazine is a little shaky and other books are banned.  This game lacks a setting because it doesn't actually exist.  Games are usually four or five players.  I expect most games I play in to make it to somewhere around 15.  The game will certainly not make it epic, as everyone I know hates Epic.

Houserules of note:
Alter Self is banned.  Nightsticks are limited to one.  Divine Metamagic is allowed, but Persist Spell is somewhere between heavily discouraged and banned.  Polymorph spends a lot of time banned.  So does Shivering Touch.

Now, for what I'm looking for (look at all this effort I'm putting in!)

I've looked over the Cleric handbook quite a bit lately (Thanks for writing it AC guy) but I don't quite see a sample build like what I'm looking for.  I'm looking to make a melee type cleric, with some sort of buffing secondary capacity (but again, Persist is a no-no).  I'm thinking about going in to RKV and getting 7 levels for the ability of awesome.  Domains have to be justified but don't have to be an actual deity.  Right now my build involves Knowledge (From Cloistered Cleric), Hunger, Travel and Strength.  Personally I think Hunger, Travel and Strength should belong to some hunting animal deity or even some hunting undead deity or SOMETHING.  I can't seem to find one so I may just make one up or something.  I'm hoping/assuming RKV can be adapted to another deity.  Maybe one who likes eating brains.

Right now I have something like

Human Cloistered Cleric 1
       Knowledge Domain
       Hunger Domain (Extra Attack)
       Travel Domain (This Domain is sweet)
Feats
       Travel Devotion (Pseudo Pounce)
       Strength Devotion (Extra Attack)
Skills 6+Int
Which will go in to Knowledges and Hide.  When I take crusader get intimidate as a class skill.  

Perhaps take Contemplative at 12 and grab the War Domain and Holy Warrior for some bonus damage.  I think this makes me start at level 1 with three attacks which is neat.

This build will need Power Attack in it somewhere likely.  DMM Extend maybe?  Though I'm not sure if DMM is necessary when its only Extend.  Other points include Collector of Stories for when my Knowledge Domain turns in to Knowledge Devotion given enough skill ranks.  I considered Dwarf for Ancestral Knowledge, but would have lacked the Favored Class: Cleric necessary.

So yeah, Ruby Knight coming from Cleric/Crusader who starts with three attacks.  Any thoughts?  
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 08:32:13 PM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Akalsaris

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 11:03:36 PM »
Looks like a solid build to me really.  Using your swift actions and turn undead for the domain feats is smart and works out about as well as a divine metamagic-based character.  Any time you can't think of a better feat, Extra Turning is useful for more uses of your domain feats (but still grab that 1 nightstick!). 

Cloistered Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Contemplative 1/Paragnostic Apostle 4 might be a decent build.  CL 18, BAB = Divine Power :P (Otherwise a horrible 12!)


Sobolev

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 11:10:46 PM »
Looks like a solid build to me really.  Using your swift actions and turn undead for the domain feats is smart and works out about as well as a divine metamagic-based character.  Any time you can't think of a better feat, Extra Turning is useful for more uses of your domain feats (but still grab that 1 nightstick!).  

Cloistered Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Contemplative 1/Paragnostic Apostle 4 might be a decent build.  CL 18, BAB = Divine Power :P (Otherwise a horrible 12!)



Looks good.  Would you recommend the full 10 levels of RKV?  What is Paragnostic Apostle from?  Also, yes I was completely relying on Divine Power, and knew it from the start >_>

Edit: Found Apostle.  I might be missing something but it seems a little weak.  Question about RKV levels stands.  Also, currently trying to find Knight of the Raven stats to see if that would be applicable.  Other comments still welcome. 

Also wondering if DMM Quicken would be an option to interact with my RKV, though it would be a non-nightstick stacking game.  Still, a decent Cha score, Extra Turning and Planar Touchstone for the Undeath Domain (Or whatever seems appropriate.  At worst it's like taking Extra Turning again) might be okay.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 11:56:46 PM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Generic_PC

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 12:05:13 AM »
Apostle is from CC, I believe. RKV is probably better taken to only 9 levels. 10 doesn't give you much.

Knight of the Raven is in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 200.

You're really using every swift action you have, just remember that. Also, its easier to take just take Extra Turning than it is to get Planar Touchstone then find a Touchstone that would grant Undeath.
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Sobolev

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 12:23:09 AM »
Yeah, found Apostle.

I should look up the level 9 RKV ability, I can't remember what it is right now.

I don't have Expedition so I'm going to have to find someone who does or use something else unfortunately.

Do you think my build has that many swifts in it?  I actually felt like it didn't have enough and I was missing out on RKV's full power.  Also, I agree that it would be easier to just get Extra Turning, but there is a Planar Touchstone that grants any Cleric domain as it's power, so I figured it could be Undeath most of the time, and then if necessary it could be come magic or something else if needed.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Generic_PC

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 12:43:00 AM »
Level 9 of RKV lets you, as a free action, spend a turn attempt to get a +4 sacred bonus to an attack roll with a martial strike, and adds 1d10 points of untyped damge.

You've got your devotion feats, Divine Recovery, changing stances, along witn a significant amount of your maneuvers all keyed to Swift actions. Actually, looking at all that, if you're planning on persisting Divine Power (6 Turn Attempts) you'll need a lot more turns to actually use most of these abilities more than 1/day.
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Sobolev

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 12:47:28 AM »
Level 9 of RKV lets you, as a free action, spend a turn attempt to get a +4 sacred bonus to an attack roll with a martial strike, and adds 1d10 points of untyped damge.

You've got your devotion feats, Divine Recovery, changing stances, along witn a significant amount of your maneuvers all keyed to Swift actions. Actually, looking at all that, if you're planning on persisting Divine Power (6 Turn Attempts) you'll need a lot more turns to actually use most of these abilities more than 1/day.

Persist is banned among my group of friends, as they are convinced it is teh nuts.

Otherwise however, point taken.  I will post a more complete build soon perhaps.

Edit: Currently reflecting on Warlock/Eldritch Disciple to go in this.  The build would be something like

Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Warlock 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Contemplative 1/Eldritch Disciple 6

I dunno how i feel about that, I'm just sort of thinking outloud in the hopes that someone will stop me when I say something crazy.

I think this gives you 4d6 Glaive a couple times, plus bite, plus slam, plus Ruby Knight dumbness, plus Wild Frenzy plus whatever.

4d6 is pretty whatever when compared to Giant Size, but without persist I don't know how reasonable it is to expect to have Giant Size and Divine Power.  Without Persist I don't even know if Giant Size becomes a workable option.

Edit2:
Continuing to think, I'm reasonably sure this is a loss of too many caster levels, and prevents you from achieving ninth level spells.  Alas this won't work.  Oh well.

That means I'm back on Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Contemplative 1/XXXX 5.  I also think this is the loss of 3 caster levels, and therefore whatever XXXX is will need to be full spellcasting.

Feats: (In no particular order)
Extra Turning
Planar Touchstone
Travel Devotion
Strength Devotion
Practiced Spellcaster (?)
Power Attack
Holy Warrior
Something?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 01:59:41 AM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Sobolev

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2010, 11:23:20 PM »
Shameless bump, but also an update.

Full build:
Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Contemplative 6

Cloistered Cleric 4
Crusader 1
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
Contemplative 1
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
Contemplative 5

Domains: Animal, Travel, Hunger, War
1st - Travel Devotion
Bonus Human - Strength Devotion
3rd - Power Attack
6th - Extra Turning
9th - Extend Spell
12th (Domain) - War
12th - Holy Warrior
15th - Planar Touchstone
18th - Practiced Spellcaster
20th (Domain) - Animal

When you decide you have enough skill ranks, trade in Knowledge Domain for Devotion.
When necessary Shapechange in to a Pit Fiend and kill everyone.
Trade in your Inflict Wounds spontaneous for Spontaneous Travel or Hunger, whichever you feel is better.  Find a good weapon, and rock out.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Echoes

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2010, 04:06:36 AM »
Just so ya know, you don't actually need a level of Crusader to get into RKV (or anything). Just grab an item that grants the right maneuver to get in. Once you are actually in the class, you gain a maneuver and you self-qualify thereafter. Saves you a CL loss.

The tricky bit comes when you try to figure out what your recovery mechanic is. Personally, I think it works like how you recover the maneuvers you get from taking Martial Study if you don't have any initiator levels, but it's really up to the DM.
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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2010, 08:47:50 PM »
Just so ya know, you don't actually need a level of Crusader to get into RKV (or anything). Just grab an item that grants the right maneuver to get in. Once you are actually in the class, you gain a maneuver and you self-qualify thereafter. Saves you a CL loss.

The tricky bit comes when you try to figure out what your recovery mechanic is. Personally, I think it works like how you recover the maneuvers you get from taking Martial Study if you don't have any initiator levels, but it's really up to the DM.

There's no question about it. The details of getting maneuvers from a PrC when you don't have a base initiator class are spelled out explicitly at the beginning of the chapter on the PrCs. Every new maneuver known from a PrC lets you learn a new maneuver, but you can only ready a number of maneuvers equal to your normal amount (usually you number of Martial Study feats) plus the amount of extra readied maneuvers you gain from the PrCs. Recovery doesn't change, so it remains at the default (each maneuver readied once per encounter).
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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2010, 10:36:43 PM »
Just take the level of Crusader. You get some BAB and a stance as well, so it isn't a bad thing.

If you're still iffy on the levels of Contemplative, going Divine Oracle, for at least 2 levels, is awesome, because you get Evasion, functioning in any armour.
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Sobolev

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2010, 11:05:34 PM »
Yeah, the stance is a requirement of RKV too.

I did consider Divine Oracle 2, but that would require a feat and seemed to weaken the possibilities for the other 3 levels.  Getting Shapechange isn't too bad anyway.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Sobolev

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Re: Melee Cleric for Fun and Profit
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2010, 09:17:45 PM »
Another shameless bump but another update.  It occurs to me that instead of 5 levels of contemplative at the end you could be some sort of Good and do...

Full build:
Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Contemplative 1/Church Inquisitor 2/Divine Oracle 2/Sacred Exorcist 1

Trade out your ability to turn undead for a varient that is compatible with Divine feats and stuff, then gain more turn undeads from Sacred Exorcist.  I haven't decided if this is actually better or not, but it's another similar approach, and has the added bonus of giving you Imp. Evasion and Immunity to Charms.

Cloistered Cleric 4
Crusader 1
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
Contemplative 1
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1
Sacred Exorcist 1
Divine Oracle 2
Church Inquisitor 2
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2

Domains: Travel, Hunger, War, Oracle, Inquisition (Or Knowledge)
1st - Travel Devotion
Bonus Human - Strength Devotion
3rd - Power Attack
6th - Extra Turning
9th - Skill Focus [Knowledge: (Religion)]
12th (Domain) - War
12th - Holy Warrior
15th - Planar Touchstone
18th - Practiced Spellcaster


Shameless bump, but also an update.

Full build:
Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Contemplative 6

Cloistered Cleric 4
Crusader 1
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
Contemplative 1
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
Contemplative 5

Domains: Animal, Travel, Hunger, War
1st - Travel Devotion
Bonus Human - Strength Devotion
3rd - Power Attack
6th - Extra Turning
9th - Extend Spell
12th (Domain) - War
12th - Holy Warrior
15th - Planar Touchstone
18th - Practiced Spellcaster
20th (Domain) - Animal

When you decide you have enough skill ranks, trade in Knowledge Domain for Devotion.
When necessary Shapechange in to a Pit Fiend and kill everyone.
Trade in your Inflict Wounds spontaneous for Spontaneous Travel or Hunger, whichever you feel is better.  Find a good weapon, and rock out.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 10:32:22 PM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.