Author Topic: The Spellcaster  (Read 4390 times)

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Azrael

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The Spellcaster
« on: June 21, 2010, 01:23:18 AM »

Ok, so we talk about gestalt and flaw and such, but why haven't I ever heard the Spellcaster class (UA pg, 77) mentioned before...If I am reading this correctly it can take spells from ANY of the base class lists!?

Is this old news or do people just never mention it because its technically a variant and no DM in their right mind would ever allow someone to play it? I mean, OK, it doesn't have the versatility a Wizard does, but its certainly better (assuming you don't rely on arcane fusion tactics) than a sorcerer; especially considering all the bonus feats.

Negative Zero

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2010, 01:49:02 AM »
IIRC, it says that if you allow any of the generic classes, everyone plays generic classes. So it's not like a class you can take freely.

Wings of Peace

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2010, 05:04:03 AM »
Doesn't the spellcaster have to choose which spells they know instead of casting from a full list like a Cleric or a Wizard?  It's been awhile since I read it.

DavidWL

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2010, 06:47:53 AM »
Old news.

It is cool, however.  It's better than a sorcerer, but arguably worse than a favored soul.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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Korwin

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2010, 10:14:56 AM »
Old news.

It is cool, however.  It's better than a sorcerer, but arguably worse than a favored soul.

Best,
David

Huh, but Favored Soul is worse than Sorcerer...

Frost Wolf

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 01:26:18 PM »
I've played one with normal classes. It was nice, but nothing noticeably different around level 4 onwards. It helped being able to use clw wands when no one wanted to be a cleric and still getting to play an arcane caster.

Honestly, the way this class does spells is how the sorc should get them.

Also: that feat at level 5 kept me from wanting to use early entry tricks to get out of the class, unlike sorc and its dead levels.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 01:28:06 PM by Frost Wolf »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 01:29:18 PM »
I've played one with normal classes. It was nice, but nothing noticeably different around level 4 onwards. It helped being able to use clw wands when no one wanted to be a cleric and still getting to play an arcane caster.

Honestly, the way this class does spells is how the sorc should get them.
Before all the love that sorcerers got from the various "Dragon" themed books, and other ways to expand their spell lists, that is exactly how I did them in my house rules. I let them pick spells known from any list. This was back before the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion. With all the stuff that's out now, I think an optimized sorcerer doesn't really need that boost, but if you play in a group that doesn't optimize well, it could still be a nice option.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

DavidWL

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 01:42:51 PM »
Old news.

It is cool, however.  It's better than a sorcerer, but arguably worse than a favored soul.

Best,
David

Huh, but Favored Soul is worse than Sorcerer...

That is true.  Simply if you want to know a lot of cleric spells, favored soul does better, with more spells known.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

Ithamar

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 02:49:13 PM »
Spellcaster is great for the Divine option since you can nab turn undead and start easily DMM'ing a bunch of stuff that clerics do not normally have access to without shenanigans.  So DMM (Persist) Wraithstrike, Bite of the Werebear, Draconic Polymorph, etc.
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carnivore

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 03:35:24 PM »
the Generic Spellcaster is Awesome if you plan it out... since the Bonus feats can give class abilities .... in addition you can choose 4 skills to be class skills on top of a short list of class skills.... and you can choose which save is a good save(for earlier entry into some PrCs)

 :D

juton

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 03:48:31 PM »
I've gotten to play one twice, at latter levels they're only a bit better than sorcerers, and it's mostly because of the extra feats, you can choose your class skills and you can be int based. At least for me my spell list was 90%+ from the sorcerer list, so other than having Heal it plays just like a sorcerer. If you consider that the sorcerer has the canard 'chooses spells primarily from the Wiz/Sorc list'.

One other thing to consider if you plan on going gish or rogish, you lose access to all other base classes, so your generic gish is basically a fighter/sorc while normally you could use ToB classes, you can't go Spellthief/Sorc 5 and take master spellthief.

DavidWL

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 03:54:34 PM »
anyspell, greater anyspell, and miracle are pretty awesome.

The picking off class features is awesome, but also subject to DM fiat, which makes me reluctant to use it for any theoretical build.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

carnivore

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 03:58:54 PM »
The picking off class features is awesome, but also subject to DM fiat, which makes me reluctant to use it for any theoretical build.

actually i dont believe the DM has any say in the Matter ... if you stick with the list, only if you try to get features outside of the list

"BONUS FEATS
Each class gains a bonus feat at 1st level, and additional bonus feats at specific levels throughout the character's career. Each time the character gains a bonus feat, he may select any feat for which he meets the prerequisites. There is no list of bonus feats to select from.
For the purposes of these classes, the following class features can be selected in place of bonus feats (unless noted, each may only be selected once).

<SNIP>
You can't recreate all of the standard character classes with these generic versions, particularly classes with complicated, unique, or specialized features such as bardic music, a wizard's familiar, or a druid's wild shape ability. If your game master allows it, you might be able to select other class features in place of one or more feats."


 :D

juton

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 05:17:11 PM »
Anyspell and Greater Anyspell won't work by RAW with a generic caster. Both spells are domain spells, they are not on the Cleric's default list so they are not selectable, also both spells require you to use a domain spell slot, generic casters don't get those.

The strongest class features you can select are probably the sneak attack ones. For forgoing one feat you get 2,3 or 4d6 of sneak attack dice, which is pretty strong.

Ithamar

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2010, 09:59:01 PM »
I'm pretty fond of Uncanny Dodge, especially since it automatically upgrades itself to Imp. Uncanny Dodge later on, no extra feat investment needed.  Keeping DEX to AC and invisible attackers getting no special bonus is pretty handy, at least in the games I play.
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Widow

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2010, 05:36:53 PM »
Anyspell and Greater Anyspell won't work by RAW with a generic caster. Both spells are domain spells, they are not on the Cleric's default list so they are not selectable, also both spells require you to use a domain spell slot, generic casters don't get those.

The strongest class features you can select are probably the sneak attack ones. For forgoing one feat you get 2,3 or 4d6 of sneak attack dice, which is pretty strong.

The sneak attack abilities are most interesting when you multiclass (which is allowed with the generic classes).  The class features state you can only take them once, but you should be able to take the "class feature" once for each class.  For example, if you took turn undead with spell caster and multiclassed out, the turn undead progression would stop unless you took it for the second class.  Where this gets interesting is if you are something like Spellcaster 16, Fighter 2, Expert 2.  Get the 2,3 and 4 sneak attack with spell caster, then pick up the 3 and 4 for both the fighter and expert.  Sneak attack dice stack so you should end up with 23 sneak attack dice.  Now this is RAW, but cheesy.  You could always do it to a lesser extent (or more  :D)

The spell caster class is missing access to bard, range, and paladin spells, which is not a big deal with limited book access, but does cause you to miss out on some spells like Improvisation, Haste swift, Snowsong, and Favored of the Martyr.

carnivore

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 06:01:12 PM »
the easiest way to optimize this is:

Human
Generic Spellcaster 10/ Arcane Trickster 10

feats:
Trapsense(human Bonus)
Sneak Attack(2d6)(Generic Bonus)
1st lvl: Versatile Spellcaster
3rd lvl: Heighten Spell
5th lvl: (Generic Bonus)
6th lvl: Acidic Splatter(Reserve)
9th lvl:
10th lvl: Improved Sneak Attack(+3d6)(Generic bonus)
12th lvl:
15th lvl: Greater Sneak Attack(+4d6)
18th lvl:

Full Spellcasting progression + 14d6 Sneak Attack with Ranged touch Attacks(Acidic Splatter =9d6 each) = 23d6 Sneak Attack

combine with Polymorph+ Kelvezu Form = 22d6 Sneak Attack +9d6 Acidic Splatter = 31d6 Sneak Attacks

 :D



juton

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 09:11:55 PM »
The sneak attack abilities are most interesting when you multiclass (which is allowed with the generic classes).  The class features state you can only take them once, but you should be able to take the "class feature" once for each class.  For example, if you took turn undead with spell caster and multiclassed out, the turn undead progression would stop unless you took it for the second class.  Where this gets interesting is if you are something like Spellcaster 16, Fighter 2, Expert 2.  Get the 2,3 and 4 sneak attack with spell caster, then pick up the 3 and 4 for both the fighter and expert.  Sneak attack dice stack so you should end up with 23 sneak attack dice.  Now this is RAW, but cheesy.  You could always do it to a lesser extent (or more  :D)

It's not RAW, because according to RAW you can only take a feat once. It's easy to get 9d6 by playing by the rules though.

Quote
The spell caster class is missing access to bard, range, and paladin spells, which is not a big deal with limited book access, but does cause you to miss out on some spells like Improvisation, Haste swift, Snowsong, and Favored of the Martyr.

If you really wanted those spells you could always dip Prestige Bard/Paladin/Ranger, since if you are using the generic classes, those base classes are unavailable so their prestige variants are permitted.


Full Spellcasting progression + 14d6 Sneak Attack with Ranged touch Attacks(Acidic Splatter =9d6 each) = 23d6 Sneak Attack

combine with Polymorph+ Kelvezu Form = 22d6 Sneak Attack +9d6 Acidic Splatter = 31d6 Sneak Attacks

 :D

First, you can't use your feats from being a human or going up in level to select bonus feats from the generic class's list. Secondly thirdly how does acid splatter bump sneak attack up to 23d6?

Widow

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 10:54:38 PM »
The sneak attack abilities are most interesting when you multiclass (which is allowed with the generic classes).  The class features state you can only take them once, but you should be able to take the "class feature" once for each class.  For example, if you took turn undead with spell caster and multiclassed out, the turn undead progression would stop unless you took it for the second class.  Where this gets interesting is if you are something like Spellcaster 16, Fighter 2, Expert 2.  Get the 2,3 and 4 sneak attack with spell caster, then pick up the 3 and 4 for both the fighter and expert.  Sneak attack dice stack so you should end up with 23 sneak attack dice.  Now this is RAW, but cheesy.  You could always do it to a lesser extent (or more  :D)

It's not RAW, because according to RAW you can only take a feat once. It's easy to get 9d6 by playing by the rules though.

They are not feats, they are class features.  I am selecting the class features ONLY ONCE for each class.  Maybe I am wrong, but I thought you could reselect a class feature for a new class.


Quote
The spell caster class is missing access to bard, range, and paladin spells, which is not a big deal with limited book access, but does cause you to miss out on some spells like Improvisation, Haste swift, Snowsong, and Favored of the Martyr.

Full Spellcasting progression + 14d6 Sneak Attack with Ranged touch Attacks(Acidic Splatter =9d6 each) = 23d6 Sneak Attack

combine with Polymorph+ Kelvezu Form = 22d6 Sneak Attack +9d6 Acidic Splatter = 31d6 Sneak Attacks

 :D

First, you can't use your feats from being a human or going up in level to select bonus feats from the generic class's list. Secondly thirdly how does acid splatter bump sneak attack up to 23d6?
[/quote]

Maybe he is doing the add any spell thing again, there is a ranger spell that adds a lot of sneak attack damage.  I forget the spell, but it comes up all the time in artificer threads.

juton

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Re: The Spellcaster
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2010, 12:06:57 AM »

Bonus Feats

Each class gains a bonus feat at 1st level, and additional bonus feats at specific levels throughout the character's career. Each time the character gains a bonus feat, he may select any feat for which he meets the prerequisites. There is no list of bonus feats to select from.

For the purposes of these classes, the following class features can be selected in place of bonus feats (unless noted, each may only be selected once).

Emphasis added.