Author Topic: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.  (Read 5759 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2011, 12:17:19 AM »
Usually I think out loud for a while first, and then go for the specifics.


3.Xe up to level 6, is thin compared to 4e.
Level 7 and beyond, 3.Xe has lots more stuff, hence level 31+ for 4e.

I mean that's how I feel about it.
But two+ heads are better than one ... (my avatar begs to differ, Dither)
 :D

There are some indications that levels above 30 were contemplated for 4e.
The level chart in the dmg goes up to 40.
But where are those level 40 items/monster/rituals/powers?
They've just gotten out the few boss monsters, and vague hints at "how to" for Artifacts.
Orcus made blah blah. Only houserules can do similar.

dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2011, 09:01:32 PM »
The original Guild Wars has a system that enables monsters to have a higher level than player characters. I've fought monsters at least as high as 30th level in Guild Wars, while the level cap in the game is 20th. The main tradeoff is that player characters are frequently more complex, with weapons, armor, and access to more powers (and frequently, better teammates). Fourth Edition is quite similar in many regards, with monsters frequently being of a higher level than the adventuring party.

You keep talking about Fourth Edition like there are no options for characters above 10-20th level. I don't think you realize just how much characters have to work with at that level. First of all, you have your race and class (leaving Essentials aside), which contribute twelve powers to a character over the first ten levels of their career. Many of those powers are as complex as your typical 3.x spell.

The character gets another five powers over the paragon tier -- 1 encounter, 2 utilities, and 2 dailies that I can think of, though they're also allowed to swap out for higher-level encounter powers at 13th and 17th, I believe. That's a total of seventeen powers, at least. The 3.x wizard, by comparison, has 40 spell slots by 20th level if they haven't specialized or pulled any shenanigans.

But let me ask you this -- how many of those spells are useful in a fight of a comparable level? How often do you bust out your 0th-, 1st-, and 2nd-level spell slots in a fight with a CR 20 monster? I love a little 5d4+5 magic missile action now and again, but seriously? (BTW, the 4e wizard is also doing about 12-16 damage with magic missile at that level, and he doesn't have to prepare it or put it in a wand.)

There are over five hundred paragon paths and over one hundred epic destinies. There are twenty-two basic classes, which through feats and multiclassing give you access to every paragon path and/or epic destiny, there are over a million characters that can be built without ever taking into account ability scores or even races. It's like how 3.x got rid of the racial/ability score restrictions on classes and opened up a lot more options.

...
Please understand, I'm not trying to sway you to 4e. I take issue with the system, but nearly all of the problems I've found with the system already existed in 3.x, and were usually worse in 3.x. I use 4e to kill time while I continue working on my own roleplaying system. If you're doing something similar, I want to make sure you have facts, because it sounds like you still don't know much about 4e.
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

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awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2011, 09:33:03 PM »
The original Guild Wars has a system that enables monsters to have a higher level than player characters. I've fought monsters at least as high as 30th level in Guild Wars, while the level cap in the game is 20th. The main tradeoff is that player characters are frequently more complex, with weapons, armor, and access to more powers (and frequently, better teammates). Fourth Edition is quite similar in many regards, with monsters frequently being of a higher level than the adventuring party.

I've no knowledge of Guild Wars.


Quote
[spoiler]

You keep talking about Fourth Edition like there are no options for characters above 10-20th level. I don't think you realize just how much characters have to work with at that level. First of all, you have your race and class (leaving Essentials aside), which contribute twelve powers to a character over the first ten levels of their career. Many of those powers are as complex as your typical 3.x spell.

The character gets another five powers over the paragon tier -- 1 encounter, 2 utilities, and 2 dailies that I can think of, though they're also allowed to swap out for higher-level encounter powers at 13th and 17th, I believe. That's a total of seventeen powers, at least. The 3.x wizard, by comparison, has 40 spell slots by 20th level if they haven't specialized or pulled any shenanigans.

But let me ask you this -- how many of those spells are useful in a fight of a comparable level? How often do you bust out your 0th-, 1st-, and 2nd-level spell slots in a fight with a CR 20 monster? I love a little 5d4+5 magic missile action now and again, but seriously? (BTW, the 4e wizard is also doing about 12-16 damage with magic missile at that level, and he doesn't have to prepare it or put it in a wand.)

There are over five hundred paragon paths and over one hundred epic destinies. There are twenty-two basic classes, which through feats and multiclassing give you access to every paragon path and/or epic destiny, there are over a million characters that can be built without ever taking into account ability scores or even races. It's like how 3.x got rid of the racial/ability score restrictions on classes and opened up a lot more options.

...
Please understand, I'm not trying to sway you to 4e. I take issue with the system, but nearly all of the problems I've found with the system already existed in 3.x, and were usually worse in 3.x. I use 4e to kill time while I continue working on my own roleplaying system. If you're doing something similar,
[/spoiler]

Sigh. Misunderstandings are common on the internet. And me too.


Quote
I want to make sure you have facts, because it sounds like you still don't know much about 4e.

About once a year someone calls me out, about role-playing.
{ ... insert they haven't read any of my other posts smiley face ... }
And it gives me a chance to mention the Stormwind Fallacy.
But that isn't what you seem to be implying here.
I don't understand. Are you really claiming I " ... still don't know much about 4e."
Really?


 :mad ... Lemme put the ball squarely back in your court:
What evidence would you accept, that I know anything about 4e ??

 :mad

dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2011, 05:54:28 PM »
I'll accept that you have no knowledge of Guild Wars. I won't try to use it as an example again.

I'm not talking about roll-playing versus roleplaying. I'm an optimizer from the CO board era, I'm familiar with the Stormwind Fallacy.

The reason I said "it sounds like you still don't know much about 4e" is because this thread is over a year old.

Almost a year ago, you suggested the possibility of cramming 30 levels of Fourth Edition into the first 10 levels of Third Edition. Is it because you want more richly powered 3.5 characters at those lower levels?
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

vanity
Read my webcomic!
Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars

[spoiler]
Quote from: Shadowhunter
Quote from: Flay Crimsonwind
"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
It's over nine thousand!

Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
Well blow me down! :P
A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 12:02:36 AM »
Perhaps I didn't come across as complimentary enough to 4e,
when I posted:
" ... The level of 4e's detail here, is covered by only 3 powers in 3.75e Psi.
Integrating all this (somehow) , seems a reasonable idea ... "

Underlining the added word, and Not being complimentary of 3e for being that thin.


dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 01:18:22 AM »
I'm not asking you to compliment 4e. As I said before, the game has its problems. Many of its problems are problems that existed in 3.x as well (I'm sure quite a few of its problems have existed as far back as First and Second Edition).

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm insulting you because that isn't my intent. What I'm trying to say is that with regards to Fourth Edition, your comments come across as uninformed. You're more than welcome to put me in my place by telling me what kind of experience you have with the system. (How long you've been playing it, studying it, gathering opinions from other players who have experience, et cetera.)

I talk trash about Fourth Edition because I followed its development from the time that Wizards of the Coast first announced it (I even predicted its release date to the year and month). I was given a free copy of the 4e Player's Handbook in an attempt to "win me over" after I refused to stop running 3.5 events at the same conventions where the RPGA was running 4e events.

I talk trash about 4e because I've been playing and running a 4e campaign for over a year and I'm familiar with its flaws. I've seen a lot of what the system has to offer, and I know many of its shortcomings. I've heard comparisons to Magic: the Gathering, but having played both, I think there are a lot of things Magic where 4e fails tremendously.

I agree with you on a lot of points you've made, and I do so with a fair amount of experience in the system. I think spell power in 4e caps out around the effectiveness of 4th-level spells in Third Edition, and I think spellcasters are largely under-valued. The controller role is a freaking joke that I wish WotC would stop trying to make. (The Essentials hunter is one of the most effective controller classes I've seen to date.) The ability to create new worlds and planes of existence, grant wishes and perform miracles, is something you can almost take for granted in Third Edition, and 4e falls short unless you want to dedicate your entire character to doing it via Epic Destiny.

When you say something like:
Quote
There are some indications that levels above 30 were contemplated for 4e.
The level chart in the dmg goes up to 40.
But where are those level 40 items/monster/rituals/powers?

The level chart in damage, if I'm thinking of the one you're talking about, is intended for monsters, not players. Monsters can go all the way up to 99th level if your DM is sadistic, and that's because damage scales on a linear basis. The damage for minions, and average damage for weak, medium, and strong monster attacks scales with average PC hit points. Because PC hit points are on a linear scale as well. PC advancement stops, but it's useful to have monsters that go above PC levels in order to continue providing a high-level challenge.

Those 40th-level items, rituals, and powers? Um, well, they don't exist because 30 levels is hard enough to support. (And they continue to get complaints because the core 8 classes get the most support of all, and both races and classes outside of core have minimal support.) 4e already has more support for all of its 30 levels than 3.x ever had for its 20 levels. *shrug*

Meanwhile, support for material is continuing to drop because the market is falling out from under WotC (all the competitive products are forcing them to change strategies). Which I'm not saying is a terrible thing, either. I like to see them get their asses kicked now and again. I'm not exactly their fanboy -- see previous statement about how they tried to buy me off with a free book. I'm not exactly impressed by them.
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

vanity
Read my webcomic!
Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars

[spoiler]
Quote from: Shadowhunter
Quote from: Flay Crimsonwind
"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
It's over nine thousand!

Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
Well blow me down! :P
A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2011, 09:09:51 PM »
Well ... as far as options above 20th level in 4e ...
I've pointed out on this board, the CO board here, and wizards' CO:


Umber Shadow Hulks are still very difficult for even CO parties with every book used.
The DM usually has to sandbag the encounter.

Lich Brain Graft sticks 1/6 recharge on dailies. It's complicated.

Swordmaster 16; and SW 20 + Deadly Trickster 26; and DT 24
is by far the most Daily recharge in Core.

SW + Godmind was so powerful it got both nerfed, like right away.
Might deserve the reward for Fastest and Most Expansive nerf in 4e.

Demogorgon has not been publicly challenged by 4e CO.
Maybe it has behind the scenes, maybe not.

Bel X (i'm forgetting the exact name) the level 34 bbeg,
can with an el cheapo minion pumper, make A.H. of the top MM Wraith.
And this without increasing the encounter level.
Probably the toughest encounter possible in 4e.

Excepting the 4e Hive of course. Cranium Rats and more Cranium Rats.

Companion Characters still work in epic.
Humans As Monsters can be Companion Characters.
Do different things than regular PCs.

And last and certainly not least, I concede my human limitations,
and go with most but not all of the things the CO board comes up with.
I am not an island.



I'm guessing you might think I "know" a little more than
the casual 4e player who posts 1 question on the general board,
and doesn't acknowledge the single correct answer response.

SquishE

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2011, 07:34:57 PM »
Edit: Derp, the last post was much older than I thought... sorry.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 11:23:06 PM by SquishE »