Author Topic: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.  (Read 5730 times)

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awaken DM golem

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4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« on: June 19, 2010, 09:59:09 PM »
For all the stuff they've published, it all feels like levels 2 through 6 in 3rd edition.
The opening 5 levels are slightly stronger than most 1st level builds in 3e, give or take some CO action.
And then it proceeds along a 5:1 ratio ... in my opinion. I don't know if this matters  :rollseyes.
Anyways ...


Polymorph --- 4e's Disguise Self illusion is almost Change Self. Doppelgangers use a real change, so that's slightly better, but not near what Alter Self gets. The very few 4e Polymorphs are 1 form only, with a few +2s and -2s thrown in via the "role" change and the specials in the monster block. This would be like getting Alter Self uncapped with Metamorphic Transfer feat, on just one form. 4e PCs can't do this (maybe yet). 3e Polymorph, Alter Self, and psi goodies, are way over this. So one 2nd level spell and one 4th level spell are superior, and all the way up. On could dumpster dive their way through the 4e MM, to find that special power that works with extra sauce. The 3e stuff gets it right off the bat.

Schism --- This one is easier. 4e Time Stop trades a minor for 2 standards that can't be attacks. 3e Schism can almost do this, if it was limited to just 2 rounds. But Schism routinely lasts much longer; in 4e terms it's an Encounter length power. Even if you took a Move action to Sustain it, it'd be worth it. And that's losing something in translation. If Schism was a 30th level 4e ability available 1/day, it'd still be considered broken good. Nerf bats would be used.

Dispel Magic/Psionics --- with the leveling up part, makes it a defacto 4th+ level spell. These could take down any 4e encounter or daily attack or utility, and not need any CO-ing to make it work. 4e's version only works on Conjurations and Zones. No counterspelling or similar. Level 35 monsters are immune to "attacks' from PCs lower than 20th level. That's the closest thing to 3e Dispelling in 4e. It feels more like a Minor Globe of Invulnerability expanded to other things, like an earlier edition damage reduction ability. Still, depending on the exact writing, a 3e Dispel could take down the top monsters. Ouch, really?!


My intent here, is to establish a top end power level of 4e, as compared to 3e.
The good 4th level spells of 3e, kick in around level 7. 4e can't do these.
Any other comparisons anyone wants to add?

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 05:06:16 PM »
You did in fact list some things that 4E has put severe restrictions on. You should be careful about branding the entire game as such. There are a number of other "powerful" effects that are represented in 4E as rituals.

Yes, they nerfed some effects that were bad for game balance. They said they were going to do that before they even released the rulebooks. But the entire game is not defined by those 3 effects.

awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2010, 01:26:22 AM »
hmm ... I'll give you Divinations, because that 4e level 16 Div in the PHB, is about on par with High 9s.
And Fighters can do it  :D .

The problem with 4e Divs, is it's kinda digital, going from dm fiat to 3e semi-epic, with that level 16.
Or consider Detect Magic - in 4e it's a skill check ; that's good. But you can't do it reliably until high Heroic ; that's pathetic.

EDIT - add in the 4e Magic Item i.d. ; that's way ahead of 3e in any form. Heck in 3e you might not know what a magic item can do, at all.




« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 09:39:52 PM by awaken DM golem »

Littha

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2010, 01:35:06 AM »
Did you see what they have done to the druid and wild shape? :bigeye

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2010, 03:54:36 PM »
I am certainly not saying that 4E is perfect, or that the power level of several things was not decreased.

I am just saying that you are making a blanket statement that all of 4E caps at a certain 3.5 level, when thats not true. There are things that cap at that level, but there are also several things that do not.

Picking the most extreme examples and presenting them as the norm is disingenuous.

Polymorphing in 4E may cap out at the 3.5 4th level spell level.
Getting extra actions in 4E may cap out at the 3.5 4th level spell level.
Dispelling in 4E may cap out at the 3.5 4th level spell level.

But that doesn't mean that all of 4E caps out there.

awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 01:03:47 AM »
Littha - but Druids needed more than just a little nerfing ...  ;).
Wild Shape could have been in the same range of 4e Polymorph. One form only and the change changes your "role".
These boarder near some CO houserules.

Eepop - well I wasn't really trying to be universal about a 4e cap. And clearly Divs breaks it.
But this does continue to hold sway otherwise.
Abjurations, Transformations, (Psi) Extra Actions are just what I've covered so far.

Conjurations can't be compared at all.
If a Summon Monster 1 brought in a 1 hit point only creature, and it stuck around for just End Of Next Round, and you lost your Move action, to move it ... would be kinda close to 4e Summons and various similars. Maybe a level for level power kicker, in there somewhere would help.
Summon Monster 3 with Extend meta, is quite off the range of 4e; as is Lesser Planar Binding (group).

Enchantments like Charm Person are way beyond 4e's Dominate effect.
Charm Monster is a 4 or a Bard 3. And it lasts all day. And you get to pick all actions of a round, instead of just 1.
4e FRCG Artifact + massive adventuring + very expensive rituals = 1 monster as Thrall-type effect. Can't get more than one at a time.

So yeah you are right, it's not a hard fast comparo.

minor EDITs
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 09:41:44 PM by awaken DM golem »

dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 12:22:06 AM »
4e traded so-called "power" in 3.x for usability. Sure, there were a lot of books written for 3.x, but how much of that stuff was ever actually useful in play? How many things were broken before they ever saw print? I'll agree with you that 4e "caps" with magic at the power of 4th-level spells, but what exactly do stand to gain from making that comparison? Are you going to start writing up classes for 4e? Designing feats or powers?

My intent here, is to establish a top end power level of 4e, as compared to 3e.

Make conversation?  :rollseyes
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awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 01:35:16 AM »
I have all the conversation I want with my kitty avatar  :bash


Well, 4e is a huge amount of material.
From a 3e Caelic COmmandments perspective, 4e loses what 13 caster levels.
From a Tiers perspective, it's not really rate-able. 4e isn't doing what 3e does.

I just figure that if it's known reasonably well, where 4e stuff fits power-wise,
relative to 3e, then fitting the two together is possible.

Kinda like this:
3e Fighter level 4 ... gets some +1s , some skills , one feat , might be behind the Tier 1 casters already.
4e Fighter Paragon levels ... isn't behind the 4e casters = that's good ,
........................................ gets almost all +2s , lots of skills , lots of feats , More class abilities , More "spell" equivalents

To me, all the stuff the 4e Fighter has is more interesting ; yet very light in the trowsers (if you know what I mean).
I also feel (just me) that it's too much stuff ; then it doesn't do all that much, even with all the combos.

dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 05:31:18 PM »
From a 3e Caelic COmmandments perspective, 4e loses what 13 caster levels.
From a Tiers perspective, it's not really rate-able. 4e isn't doing what 3e does.

You haven't explained why this matters. 4e isn't 3.x, it doesn't have to do what 3.x does.

Sure, it would be nice if it did, and I think the reality is that we'd rather play than argue.

I just figure that if it's known reasonably well, where 4e stuff fits power-wise,
relative to 3e, then fitting the two together is possible.

Because thirty levels of play isn't enough?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 09:25:48 PM »
It would be nice if it did, but it probably doesn't

My opinion (only) is that D&D this edition and D&D that edition, "ought" to have some continuity.
My opinion (again) is that 1e and 2e and most of 3e, is a continuous improvement., with continuity.
I can cite spells and monsters that exist across the decades,
with reasonably similar stuff / locations within the games.

4e seems to break away from the previous editions. It's almost a totally different game.
It's says it's D&D, but it basically isn't.
Never-the-less, the material can be imported over either way.
Not that I'm at that interested in hacking 3e, for more stuff for 4e.
It can be done.
It's like fighting a child blindfolded with a hand behind your back, but with real fighting AND the whole tea-party thing too.
3e Psi-recharge dumped into the 4e PHB3 psi classes, equals craziness unimaginable.


30 levels?
Well yeah that didn't work at all in 3e or in previous editions.
It's doesn't really work either in 4e.
Compressing it all down to 10 levels, and then moving up a little from there ... might work.

dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 10:24:02 PM »
30 levels?
Well yeah that didn't work at all in 3e or in previous editions.
It's doesn't really work either in 4e.
Compressing it all down to 10 levels, and then moving up a little from there ... might work.

What does this even mean?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2010, 09:48:26 PM »
I was responding to this ...
I just figure that if it's known reasonably well, where 4e stuff fits power-wise,
relative to 3e, then fitting the two together is possible.

Because thirty levels of play isn't enough?

I figure taking 3e and stuffing it into 4e,
is along the lines of 3e's 2nd to 6th level, fitting approximately to 4e's level 1 to 30 ... really.

I figure taking 4e and stuffing it into 3e,
is along the lines of 4e's 1st to 30th level, fitting approximately to 3e's level 2 to 6 ... really.

But it might be more fun to lag the 3e material, and compress to 4e material but not as much.
Slow the 3e progression some, and stuff 4e's 30 levels into just 10.
Maybe it would work.
Maybe.

I think the reasoning here is more along the lines, of people NOT playing all 30 levels,
in 4th edition, but 3rd edition too. Games are just not going that long.

dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 10:58:35 PM »
Y'know, I've been playing in a Fourth Edition game for almost a year now, and I've gone from 3rd to 10th level as a wizard/cleric. I'm not missing anything about 3rd edition, I don't care if I'm didn't make "god" by 4th level. I don't see why it's necessary or even desirable to have reality-warping characters. If the first thirty levels of Fourth Edition are truly "levels 1-6 of 3rd edition" in terms of overall power (never mind the fact that you can become a demigod and create/control a plane of existence by 30th level in 4e), I don't know, do you think it would be worth examining taking levels 7-12 of 3.x and spreading them out over another 30 levels?

It seems like all it would take is following the model created so far and expanding it another 30 levels. Does anyone have access to the old school books "Advanced D&D" that talk about what to do with the game when characters reach 50th, 60th, and 70th level? (Was that first or second edition?) What does the game become after everyone's a god?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2010, 11:09:32 PM »
Oh ... I get your point.
Over at gamingden, the dudes were banging (in their inimitable style)
about Heroes vs. Super Heroes.

Yeah, makes sense.
3e starts turning into a Super Heroes game, sooner or later.
4e tries to Not be a Super Heroes game, with minor exceptions, and some rules interactions.

Looking at it from that angle ... my point sort-of still stands.
If e6 or 3e from levels 1 to about level 7-ish, is what floats your boat,
then 4th edition is a much more detailed system.
Lasting 30 levels instead of just 5 or 6 or 7.
Mind you, there are always holes in any game, or understanding of it ... mine included.

Continuing along those lines, a 4e game could try to straight hack
as much of 3e from it's level 1 to the end of 3rd level spells,
and call ALL of it 30th to 39th level.

Then do the same with 3e 4th level spells,
and similar combat stuff.
to be 40th to 49th level. Etc ...

At some point the combat stuff from 3e just falls away, and wouldn't be translatable anymore.

awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2011, 12:06:16 AM »
Speaking of detail ...


3.5e Psychoportation has a Teleport 10'+aug power in CPsi.
Dimension Swap is a 2nd level power.
D-Door everyone knows at 4th level.

OK.
So there's a new 4e guide at wizards that's about Teleporting.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28077957/BAMF_-_A_Teleporters_Guidebook

Zathris says:
" ... With 422 powers, 72 feats, 339 items, 94 paragon paths, and 21 epic destinies,
Teleporting is pretty much as well supported as the entire Fighter Class ... "

The level of 4e's detail here, is covered by 3 powers in 3.75e Psi.
Integrating all this (somehow) , seems a reasonable idea.

 :blush

dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2011, 04:34:39 PM »
Having played a wizard in Fourth Edition and helped build a Swordmage, I can tell you that a majority of those feats and powers and yadda yadda are based around making short-range teleports and having something happen either at the beginning or ending of the teleportation (and occasionally, being able to teleport as a reaction to something, like a contingency).

Sure, there's an impressive amount of support for teleportation, but a lot of it is on that "Not Super Heroes" level you're talking about. The thing Zathris left out, or maybe that doesn't come across as well if you aren't familiar with 4e, is that teleportation is a normal method of movement during a fight. He goes on to mention that nearly every class is able to get teleportation easily.

...you know, what might be a more effective use of time? Looking at what effects aren't supported by 4e (starting at around, say 5th- and 6th-level spells) and seeing how they might be "more detailed" in the way that Fourth Edition does things. What kinds of effects might you reasonably expect being able to use Limited Wish every single round?

Sure, the Theoretical Optimization forum would say something along the lines of "win the game, once per round," but Fourth Edition would look at it and say "that wouldn't be very fun for everyone else playing the game, let's figure out why you wouldn't win the game every round, and then figure out how to still make it awesome."
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awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2011, 11:29:47 PM »
Huh, yeah like what the level 31+ BBEGs can do,
or Artifacts, or the borkt stuff that got nerfed.

Then put the 3e good 4s and reasonable 5s and 6s,
into that tier. Call it trans-epic or deific or something like that.


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Limited Wish every round, I think it's doable.
It's kinda flaky and there's lots of negotiating with the DM.
Wish loops got a solid treatment over at gamingden.
You can play that kind of game, although clearly it's not a tasty cup of tea for most.

dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2011, 08:24:00 PM »
Are you familiar with Fourth Edition and how they break down the tiers?

Every character has a race, and every race grants a special encounter power. These powers are usually of a utilitarian nature, and help define a character throughout the Heroic tier. IIRC, there's support for those racial encounter powers throughout each tier of play, but I think you'll find the most feat support for them at the Heroic level.

Everyone has an action point at the start of every day, plus they get another one every other encounter. Once they hit Paragon tier, and they're assumed to be slogging through more encounters per day, and they get additional options for their action points.

Every character has hit points and dies if they fail three death saves or hit negative hit points equal to their bloodied value. When the characters hit Epic tier, they usually get an option to shrug off death once per day.

Looking at the way core takes each tier and hones one aspect of a character, it's probably reasonable to assume that another tier of play (if you really feel the need to go beyond 30th level, which is already comparable to anything that could 3.x could do anyway) would take another core element of gameplay and magnify it.

You could go through the cycle again for levels 31-40, 41-50, and 51-60, taking another pass at each race, action points, and mortality -- maybe characters of 31st level and higher are able to adopt another race's characteristics, or get an additional use of their racial power. Maybe they can use it at-will instead of as an encounter power? Once they hit 41st level, maybe they get an extra action point at the beginning of every day, and/or they can now use more than one action point per encounter? Once they hit 51st, maybe they gain a new way to stave off death?

I mean, if you've played in a Fourth Edition game, you should already know how complex gameplay is at the combat level. Unless some method for narrowing the number of powers allotted to each character is devised, every round of combat will be a trip through the card catalog of superpowers again, the same way that high-level 3.x games were all the time.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 01:54:30 AM »
I'm not familiar with italics fourth edition.
 :D


There has a been a small pile of 4e material nerfed by wizards.
Those de-nerfed can go into the 31+ level tier. Balancing it all is a different story.
But yeah, with all the things to monitor, a streamlining could or should be had.
2 for 1 discount and improvement time.
And unique stuff ; not the really special cotton candy type ii.c.4 subcategory b ...


dither

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Re: 4e caps at the 3e good 4th level spells.
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 06:39:14 PM »
I'm not familiar with italics fourth edition.

Sorry if that was confusing, I didn't italicize it for emphasis. I refer to it as a body of work on my blog so I italicize it. :smirk

There has a been a small pile of 4e material nerfed by wizards.
Those de-nerfed can go into the 31+ level tier. Balancing it all is a different story.
But yeah, with all the things to monitor, a streamlining could or should be had.
2 for 1 discount and improvement time.
And unique stuff ; not the really special cotton candy type ii.c.4 subcategory b ...

I forget, are you adapting 3.x to fit into 4e, or 4e to fit into 3.x? It makes a difference.  :p
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"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
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Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
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A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
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