Author Topic: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?  (Read 16873 times)

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Bastian

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2010, 07:46:32 PM »
No, it can't negate real sound, but it can produce the illusion of 'no sound' which, to anyone believing in it, would appear as if there was no sound.
Read the spell again. It can only create very specific things, it can not negate sound nor can it create "no sound." :banghead

veekie

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #81 on: June 15, 2010, 07:58:21 PM »
It's not creating those things, it's causing the illusion of those things. The actual sounds still exist for anyone who made the save, so if you had a table of people talking, and then someone dropped the illusion of silence on them, the ones who made the save would be able to hear everything normally, including the exclamations of the people who didn't(though those who failed the save would probably stop shouting after a while).
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bastian

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #82 on: June 15, 2010, 08:03:40 PM »
It's not creating those things, it's causing the illusion of those things. The actual sounds still exist for anyone who made the save, so if you had a table of people talking, and then someone dropped the illusion of silence on them, the ones who made the save would be able to hear everything normally, including the exclamations of the people who didn't(though those who failed the save would probably stop shouting after a while).
Okay, I will explain it nice and slowly. :banghead It can only create illusions of very specific things. It can in no way overwrite other sounds. So if there was talking in the background, you can't silence it you can only add more noise. Nor could you replace it with any other sound because that would be silencing and then adding sound.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:05:32 PM by Bastian »

veekie

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #83 on: June 15, 2010, 08:11:34 PM »
Doesn't say THAT in the spell itself though, it's as much of an extrapolation as the interpretation that you can create a full featured illusion including the illusion of absence.
That was sorta the point. Both views are equally valid interpretations given the spell descriptions.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bastian

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #84 on: June 15, 2010, 08:15:44 PM »
Doesn't say THAT in the spell itself though, it's as much of an extrapolation as the interpretation that you can create a full featured illusion including the illusion of absence.
That was sorta the point. Both views are equally valid interpretations given the spell descriptions.
No because the ability to create does not equal the ability to destroy. Extrapolating something that isn't there at all is called making shit up. It can only do things it says it can do, everything else is Rule 0. Now please read the spell descriptions below. Then tell me where it mentioned creating absence or destroying sound. Or for that matter where it mentioned the illusion being "fully featured."
Quote
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Quote
This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect. While concentrating, you can move the image within the range.

The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:20:41 PM by Bastian »

veekie

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #85 on: June 15, 2010, 08:22:21 PM »
^^
Quote
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Arguable that you can create the illusion of an auditory force. A muffling force.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

skydragonknight

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #86 on: June 15, 2010, 08:24:43 PM »
Next thing you know it will be making the noise of one hand clapping.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Bastian

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #87 on: June 15, 2010, 08:33:00 PM »
^^
Quote
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Arguable that you can create the illusion of an auditory force. A muffling force.
Muffling something is not a force and you can only create an illusionary force not a real force so that "force" couldn't effect real things in the first place. On an unrelated note to you have any idea what sound actually is?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:36:16 PM by Bastian »

skydragonknight

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #88 on: June 15, 2010, 08:35:38 PM »
Sound is a wave, so you *could* create the opposite wave to cancel it out...in real life. In a fantasy world without real world physics, you'd have to ask your DM.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Bastian

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #89 on: June 15, 2010, 08:38:17 PM »
Sound is a wave, so you *could* create the opposite wave to cancel it out...in real life. In a fantasy world without real world physics, you'd have to ask your DM.
That was mentioned earlier, the problem is you would be trying to cancel something out in real time that you couldn't see nor could you experience it before it reached your ears. Also you are only creating illusionary sound, not real sound so it couldn't effect real sound. :)

bananaphone

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #90 on: June 15, 2010, 08:40:43 PM »
That's the thing though.  It is a figment right?  So it's not real.  Can an illusionary sound affect real sound?
Even if it did affect real sound, you would need the exact amplitude and wavelength to create complete destructive interference.  If you are off by a fraction, you may only muffle the sound or actually make it louder!

Edit: Bastian addressed the figment part.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 09:17:19 PM by bananaphone »

veekie

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #91 on: June 15, 2010, 08:53:13 PM »
Sound is a wave, so you *could* create the opposite wave to cancel it out...in real life. In a fantasy world without real world physics, you'd have to ask your DM.
That was mentioned earlier, the problem is you would be trying to cancel something out in real time that you couldn't see nor could you experience it before it reached your ears. Also you are only creating illusionary sound, not real sound so it couldn't effect real sound. :)
Yep, the real sound never got touched, you only affected the perception of real sound. If someone dropped a Sound Burst in the Major Image Silence you'd be torn up pretty bad, but you wouldn't hear a thing.
Think of it as auditory sleight of hand, you don't need to know the wave to cancel because you know the wave you want your suckers to hear, i.e. nothing!

In other words, "I reject your reality and substitute my own", Major Image cannot create real light sources, however, within the space affected, you could see the illusion of light.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bastian

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #92 on: June 15, 2010, 08:56:48 PM »
Sound is a wave, so you *could* create the opposite wave to cancel it out...in real life. In a fantasy world without real world physics, you'd have to ask your DM.
That was mentioned earlier, the problem is you would be trying to cancel something out in real time that you couldn't see nor could you experience it before it reached your ears. Also you are only creating illusionary sound, not real sound so it couldn't effect real sound. :)
Yep, the real sound never got touched, you only affected the perception of real sound. If someone dropped a Sound Burst in the Major Image Silence you'd be torn up pretty bad, but you wouldn't hear a thing.
Think of it as auditory sleight of hand, you don't need to know the wave to cancel because you know the wave you want your suckers to hear, i.e. nothing!
It's not mind effecting nor does it effect the people (and yes that means no effecting the perception), you are only creating an illusion of very specific things. Destroy, muffling, or hiding real sound in any way is not part of its powers. I will repeat you can't effect real sound and you can't effect the people, you are only creating more fake sound.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:58:42 PM by Bastian »

bananaphone

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #93 on: June 15, 2010, 09:03:18 PM »
Sound is a wave, so you *could* create the opposite wave to cancel it out...in real life. In a fantasy world without real world physics, you'd have to ask your DM.
That was mentioned earlier, the problem is you would be trying to cancel something out in real time that you couldn't see nor could you experience it before it reached your ears. Also you are only creating illusionary sound, not real sound so it couldn't effect real sound. :)
Yep, the real sound never got touched, you only affected the perception of real sound. If someone dropped a Sound Burst in the Major Image Silence you'd be torn up pretty bad, but you wouldn't hear a thing.
Think of it as auditory sleight of hand, you don't need to know the wave to cancel because you know the wave you want your suckers to hear, i.e. nothing!

In other words, "I reject your reality and substitute my own", Major Image cannot create real light sources, however, within the space affected, you could see the illusion of light.

In this case you would just end up creating your illusionary sound, and leave the real sound unaffected.
The target would hear both sounds.  Unless he made his will save, in which case he would still hear the real sound.

veekie

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #94 on: June 15, 2010, 09:07:23 PM »
Guess which one the victim would believe though.
It's not impossible to fool someone that a person in a bright pink costume isn't in plain sight even without magic. RL magicians do it all the time! And if it can be done with visual it can be done with audio.

Actually I'm just bored while working on assignments late at night, if you can't tell ;)
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bastian

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2010, 09:12:23 PM »
Guess which one the victim would believe though.
It's not impossible to fool someone that a person in a bright pink costume isn't in plain sight even without magic. RL magicians do it all the time! And if it can be done with visual it can be done with audio.
That person would believe which ever one they wanted and they would more than likely believe both since they would be experiencing both with neither hidden.  If it can be done with visual, it isn't necessarily doable with audio since sound is different. This is why I asked you if you knew what sound actually is since you clearly don't.

skydragonknight

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #96 on: June 15, 2010, 09:13:02 PM »
So, yeah, I'm not seeing getting Silence from this. However, I don't see any limitations on the volume of sound, so it could be used to create more of less a temporary Deafness (completely wash out the other sounds...like a rock concert on steroids).
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2010, 10:50:00 PM »
Look, let's say you create an illusion of a brick wall.  There's a real lantern behind it.

Are you really arguing that anyone looking at the illusionary brick wall would think it was glowing?

Same thing.
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Bastian

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #98 on: June 15, 2010, 11:04:48 PM »
Look, let's say you create an illusion of a brick wall.  There's a real lantern behind it.

Are you really arguing that anyone looking at the illusionary brick wall would think it was glowing?

Same thing.
No, because sound works differently than light. Light is absorbed/bounces off anything that is colored (that's why things have colors). Sound, however, is not stopped by sound except where they exactly cancel out. Also the wording on each is slightly different. Silent Image creates the visual illusion of something, whereas Major Image simply adds in sound, smell, and thermal illusions to that.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?
« Reply #99 on: June 15, 2010, 11:07:02 PM »
Sound is absorbed/bounces off any kind of matter.

"I make a major illusion of invisible gas that absorbs all sound".
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My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.