Is Major Image the Wizard's Silence?

[Bastian]

Sound is absorbed/bounces off any kind of matter.

"I make a major illusion of invisible gas that absorbs all sound".

Major image can't emulate matter. It can only make a visual illusion of an object, creature, or force and sound, smell, and thermal illusions. That's where the problem lies since it can create visible images they can reflect or create light but it can't create anything that can stop sound, it can only create more of it.

[SolEiji]

If only there was a spell made that specifically called out as being able to change the existing noise in the room....

Wait a second...

[skydragonknight]

Ha. Spellcaster says "Moo."

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Sound is absorbed/bounces off any kind of matter.

"I make a major illusion of invisible gas that absorbs all sound".

Major image can't emulate matter. It can only make a visual illusion of an object, creature, or force and sound, smell, and thermal illusions. That's where the problem lies since it can create visible images they can reflect or create light but it can't create anything that can stop sound, it can only create more of it.

It can create something that can stop sound in the same way that it can create something that can stop light.

If I create a silent image of a cardboard box around a candle, can everyone still see the candle through the box?

If yes, then illusions are all useless, since there's no difference between seeing light coming from a dude and light coming from a candle

If no, then illusions can in fact stop light.  Since major image works the same as silent image with respect to sound, it should work.

[skydragonknight]

Anything that is not specifically covered by the rules is up to the DM. I believe this is such a case. If the DM chooses to use all of our universes' physics for their universe, then yes, it might work. In summary: "Depends on setting."

[LargePrime]

It can create something that can stop sound in the same way that it can create something that can stop light.

If I create a silent image of a cardboard box around a candle, can everyone still see the candle through the box?

If yes, then illusions are all useless, since there's no difference between seeing light coming from a dude and light coming from a candle

If no, then illusions can in fact stop light.  Since major image works the same as silent image with respect to sound, it should work.

Strawman! Using false equivalency of Light and sound!
Sound and light are not equivalent.  SOUND PENETRATES SOLID OBJECTS!  Light does not.  Your box stops light but not sound.  If you have an alarm clock under the box, you can still hear it even if it is an illusion.  Even if you put an illusionary box over a real alarm clock you can also hear it.

Your post suggests "Since major image works the same as silent image with respect to sound".  Major Image says no such thing.  I defy you to show this.  It says "This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect."  The ADDED illusion effects are specifically denied silent image.  Therefore they cannot "work the same"!

Nice try TML.

[Littha]

It can create something that can stop sound in the same way that it can create something that can stop light.

If I create a silent image of a cardboard box around a candle, can everyone still see the candle through the box?

If yes, then illusions are all useless, since there's no difference between seeing light coming from a dude and light coming from a candle

If no, then illusions can in fact stop light.  Since major image works the same as silent image with respect to sound, it should work.

Strawman! Using false equivalency of Light and sound!
Sound and light are not equivalent.  SOUND PENETRATES SOLID OBJECTS!  Light does not.  Your box stops light but not sound.  If you have an alarm clock under the box, you can still hear it even if it is an illusion.  Even if you put an illusionary box over a real alarm clock you can also hear it.

Your post suggests "Since major image works the same as silent image with respect to sound".  Major Image says no such thing.  I defy you to show this.  It says "This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect."  The ADDED illusion effects are specifically denied silent image.  Therefore they cannot "work the same"!

Nice try TML.

If you have a strong enough light i will go through solid objects and if you have a quiet enough alarm clock the box would stop the noise.

[PhaedrusXY]

Sound and light are not equivalent.  SOUND PENETRATES SOLID OBJECTS!  Light does not.

What about panes of glass? Does light not penetrate them? And sound doesn't exactly travel through a lot of solids very well, either.

Your box stops light but not sound.

What if it's a box made of double panes of glass, with a vaccuum space between them? Or a box mimicking sound-proof walls of a building?

If you have an alarm clock under the box, you can still hear it even if it is an illusion.  Even if you put an illusionary box over a real alarm clock you can also hear it.

You have failed to prove that. I found TMLs last argument pretty convincing. I was leaning the other way before it.

[skydragonknight]

...does it matter? We've already left the basic spell description and wandered into the gray fuzzy obscure place of the rule that is not particularly useful for practical optimization.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect.

How is that not treating them the same?

[PhaedrusXY]

...does it matter? We've already left the basic spell description and wandered into the gray fuzzy obscure place of the rule that is not particularly useful for practical optimization.

I don't think I agree. Interpreting illusions is always going to require this kind of stuff, since they're so damned open-ended. It is certainly possible to create a sound-proof box/room/etc. So it should be possible to create an illusion of one, if you use an appropriate illusion spell that works for sounds.

In fact, some very mundane illusions sure wouldn't be very convincing if it didn't work this way. If you create the illusion of a dome-shaped Wall of Ice over an enemy, but the sounds coming from outside it aren't even muffled, then that illusion is basically worthless. Any illusion spell that can affect the sense of sound should actually muffle the sounds though, to make it more complete. I don't think this is TO at all, or outside practical op.

[LargePrime]

If you have a strong enough light i will go through solid objects and if you have a quiet enough alarm clock the box would stop the noise.

So you do not agree light and sound behave fundamentally differently?

Sound and light are not equivalent.  SOUND PENETRATES SOLID OBJECTS!  Light does not.

What about panes of glass?

TML's illustration suggested light is stopped by the box.  I was showing the logical error in the illustration.  Did TML's illustration include glass?

Your box stops light but not sound.

What if it's a box made of double panes of glass, with a vaccuum space between them? Or a box mimicking sound-proof walls of a building?

Did TML's illustration include a vacuum?

If you have an alarm clock under the box, you can still hear it even if it is an illusion.  Even if you put an illusionary box over a real alarm clock you can also hear it.

You have failed to prove that.

You did read my post right?  The one where I point out the strawman TML used to make his point?

This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect.

How is that not treating them the same?

In that Silent image specifically says these things ARE NOT INCLUDED, so they cannot be treated the same.  They are IN ADDITION TO! To be treated as their very own separate selves.  Specificaly, when we add SOUND to SILENT IMAGE, it acts like sound, not light.  Same for Scent and thermal effects acting as they would, not light.  Certainly this is not language mandating that we must treat all the other added effects only and exactly as we treat Light.  That would really screw up your scent and thermal effects.  Your strawman is still a strawman.

But vacuums are an interesting point.  Can an illusion of a vacuum stop sound?  Do vacuums stop sound in DnD?

[bananaphone]

Creating an illusion of a vacuum would be crazy.
I Major Image in an area of a perfect vacuum on my enemy.  Make some CON checks for suffocation. 
House on fire?  No problem, I just Major Image in around the fire that is a perfect vacuum and put out the fire by lack of oxygen.

[Littha]

Creating an illusion of a vacuum would be crazy.
House on fire?  No problem, I just Major Image in around the fire that is a perfect vacuum and put out the fire by lack of oxygen.

Only if the fire failed its will save...

[bananaphone]

Creating an illusion of a vacuum would be crazy.
House on fire?  No problem, I just Major Image in around the fire that is a perfect vacuum and put out the fire by lack of oxygen.

Only if the fire failed its will save...

Thats the thing though, we are talking about Light wave/particles, and sound waves being affected by a Figment.

Ha, this gives me a headache.  I think if I were adjucating this as a DM, I would allow the "box" around the candle and a "box" around a source of sound, but the wizard would not be able to 100% soundproof the box since you need a vacuum to do that.  (Of course the materials of the "box" make a difference.  Illusion of a lead insulated wall with a foam covering as opposed to cardboard.)

[LargePrime]

Creating an illusion of a vacuum would be crazy.
House on fire?  No problem, I just Major Image in around the fire that is a perfect vacuum and put out the fire by lack of oxygen.

Only if the fire failed its will save...

Thats the thing though, we are talking about Light wave/particles, and sound waves being affected by a Figment.

Does being destroyed if the vacuum exists counts as interacting with the illusion?  Does it even get a save?

Can you put the illusion of a cold thing over a hot thing?  What would you feel?  Do heat and cold cancel each other in DnD?  Can you do the same with smell?

[Senevri]

Hm. Gut feeling: Images can't do vacuum, since that'd be subtracting, not adding. Also, there's no tactile effect outside heat and cold.

@Skydragonknight, stop trying to be reasonable.

@bananaphone, questionable. I personally believe we're dealing an eclectic mixture of fire and positive energy elements.

@LargePrime, explosions are louder in vacuum, since there's no air getting in the way. Wait, that wasn't it...
Anyway, failed to prove that a bright enough light doesn't go through objects or  that a silent enough sound isn't absorbed and reflected by objects.

If we stick to RAW, effects like illumination or blocking sound are outside the scope of the spell. Absence of sound is not sound. absence of water is not water.

If an illusion blocks line of sight, it will also block illumination since, common sense, illumination requires line of sight. Sound does not require line of sight, nor even a line of effect. (since you can listen through doors).
Olfactory effects wouldn't require a line of sight but do require a line of effect.

You COULD still use the counter-noise tactic, I guess, but it would be defeated by the listener's will save. A failed will save means the listener is simultaneously hearing the real sound and the illusory sound, after all.

The shortest explanation for how sound works in figment spells (I mean, auditory sound that doesn't exist?) is...
well...
"You think that's air you're breathing?"

[LargePrime]

@LargePrime, explosions are louder in vacuum, since there's no air getting in the way. Wait, that wasn't it...
Anyway, failed to prove that a bright enough light doesn't go through objects or  that a silent enough sound isn't absorbed and reflected by objects.

Remember I was pointing out a logical fallacy, not making a point about physics.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you have a strong enough light i will go through solid objects and if you have a quiet enough alarm clock the box would stop the noise.

So you do not agree light and sound behave fundamentally differently?

Sound and light are not equivalent.  SOUND PENETRATES SOLID OBJECTS!  Light does not.

What about panes of glass?

TML's illustration suggested light is stopped by the box.  I was showing the logical error in the illustration.  Did TML's illustration include glass?

Your box stops light but not sound.

What if it's a box made of double panes of glass, with a vaccuum space between them? Or a box mimicking sound-proof walls of a building?

Did TML's illustration include a vacuum?

If you have an alarm clock under the box, you can still hear it even if it is an illusion.  Even if you put an illusionary box over a real alarm clock you can also hear it.

You have failed to prove that.

You did read my post right?  The one where I point out the strawman TML used to make his point?

This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect.

How is that not treating them the same?

In that Silent image specifically says these things ARE NOT INCLUDED, so they cannot be treated the same.  They are IN ADDITION TO! To be treated as their very own separate selves.  Specificaly, when we add SOUND to SILENT IMAGE, it acts like sound, not light.  Same for Scent and thermal effects acting as they would, not light.  Certainly this is not language mandating that we must treat all the other added effects only and exactly as we treat Light.  That would really screw up your scent and thermal effects.  Your strawman is still a strawman.

But vacuums are an interesting point.  Can an illusion of a vacuum stop sound?  Do vacuums stop sound in DnD?

Yes, light and sound behave differently.  However, the fact that we are able to block light with silent image proves that you can prevent someone from seeing something emitting at point A from point C by adding an illusion of something at point B.

Similarly, you could duplicate a tiefling creating darkness and make it look like you were countering a light spell, even though in actuality there was still light.

What that something is is largely irrelevant.  

[LargePrime]

Yes, light and sound behave differently.  However, the fact that we are able to block light with silent image proves that you can prevent someone from seeing something emitting at point A from point C by adding an illusion of something at point B.

I am sorry, but it does no such thing.  It means you can effect light.  That's it.  We cannot generalize this in any way.

We can say we have precedent in that we can manipulate light in this way.  Perhaps we should also be able to do so with thermal effects, scent, and sound.  But we cannot insist that just because we can do something with light we have to be able to do it with all the other effects.