Author Topic: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?  (Read 16363 times)

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Endarire

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Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« on: June 12, 2010, 03:12:17 AM »
Power-wise, a Barbarian4 is probably weaker than a Barbarian1/Cleric1/Fighter2, depending on the options.  Also, in general, non-casters benefit far more from dipping and multiclassing than casters.  The rules allow and sometimes encourage heavy multiclassing to fulfill a concept.  (See Complete Adventurer's Fochluran Lyrist.)  Despite this, I read of many people- DMs especially- who dislike the notion of dipping.

Do you panic when you see someone heavily dipped, like a different class each level?  How does your group feel?  What about your DM?  How effective were they?

How do you feel when a well-played Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Artificer comes along with the ability to end or stalemate fights in a spell or two?  Do you wonder what prestige class or feat allowed that to happen?  Do you accept it as casters being casters?  Again, how does your group feel?

From an in-game perspective, an adventurer risks his life on a daily basis, not knowing what perils will befall him.  (Smart adventurers stay informed and often pay well for good help.)  Mr. Adventurer probably wants to be the best X he can be.  Maybe he trained with the Frostrim Giants, the Greenring Druids, and a variety of other organizations to learn their styles.  Maybe he learned this through self-study and experimentation; someone must be the first!

Also, classes are groups of related abilities.  Someone who sttudies at an academy may earn the title of "Wizard" or "Mage" even as a Sorcerer, Bard, or Wu Jen.  A group of nomads may be called "Barbarians," regardless of their class levels.  The creepy guy in the woods gets all sorts of titles, even if he's a Commoner.  The quickest path to martial greatness is not Fighter20, especially if Tome of Battle or non-core material is allowed.

Is there so much connotation of a class name- "Barbarian," "Witch," "Sorcerer" - that you can think of them as nothing beyond your first impression?

If you reference X sources, do people feel inadequate or that you're trying too hard?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 01:28:11 AM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Unbeliever

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2010, 03:30:16 AM »
re:  Dipping
Dipping is not a problem for me and my gaming groups (of which I have about 3, 2 in NYC and one in FL).  The biggest reason is one you hint at:  Fighter 2/Paladin 4/Thayan Knight 4 is a whole lot weaker than Druid 10 or Conjurer 10.  Another reason is that we view classes as necessary abstractions (though mucking around w/ them is part of the fun of D&D), so "fighter" or "kensai" doesn't really have much independent meaning to us unless you want it to.  So, sometimes you just want the 2nd level ability from a class, and that's fine.  

Implicitly, I think we do demand that people make characters.  They need some flair and some individuality and their abilities need to -- more or less -- hang together in a sensible way.  I cannot recall the last time that was an issue of any sort, though.  People just seem to naturally do it.  


re:  Ending Fights
If that's someone's character concept, then it's the sort of thing the DM and the party has to roll w/, assuming the character isn't broken.  And, we have our own sense for what that means.  For example, one of my good friends was playing a Beguiler for a while, and he had high DCs and he routinely either ended or mitigated fights.  That was his bag.  Well-placed Illusory Pits and Hypnotic Patterns cut the enemy's numbers in half.  On the flip side, when they did save, nothing happened, and that was something he had to deal w/.  So long as the save DCs aren't too nutty, and the player realizes that sometimes his save or suck abilities won't work (e.g., golems), I think things are fine.

I think I might be less sanguine about it if it wasn't part of the character concept or if as a DM I was somehow blindsided by it.  But, my group knows that this is a big part of what say a Beguiler or a Conjurer does.  We also do go out of our way to tell the DM what our characters can do, since he or she typically has better things to do than comb over our builds.  

I'd also say as a player and DM I'm pretty comfortable throwing another wave of bad guys if the first one gets mowed down too quickly or in undramatic fashion.  The reverse is true, too.  One of my DMs recently cheated, but in an interesting and story-driven way, so that we'd be in a little bit better shape for a second encounter b/c the first one was harder than he anticipated.  Note that this wasn't during the fight -- he essentially gave us an easy healing opportunity for one of the characters.  

EDIT:  ninja'ed by the OP.  I don't tend to think of classes as anything other than related groups of abilities, though they are sets of abilities that do at least capture some concepts.  But, when I hear "barbarian" I hear "tankish melee combatant w/ ability to boost stats and wilderness skills" or something to that effect.  "Sorcerer" is "spontaneous casting arcane class."  Stuff like that.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 03:32:52 AM by Unbeliever »

Zionpopsickle

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2010, 03:35:58 AM »
General response to this trend of Endaire threads.

Hoods why the dislike?

Rolls for hide check...

Unbeliever

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2010, 03:37:28 AM »
From an in-game perspective, an adventurer risks his life on a daily basis, not knowing what perils will befall him.  (Smart adventurers stay informed and often pay well for good help.)  Mr. Adventurer probably wants to be the best X he can be.  
This leaves me cold.  In part it's b/c we're interested in creating characters, not well-oiled combat machines.  I concede there's a certain "realism" to the idea that adventurers would seek to "optimize" as much as possible given their dangerous line of work, but that's a rather selective form of realism.  Like, their line of work would never exist in the first place, and the rules abstract away from things that would matter in real life.  Real life example:  in WWII the Thompson Machinegun was primarily used w/ the standard clip rather than the higher-capacity drum; the drum would be strictly superior in game terms, but it was harder to carry on the strap for long periods of time, which is mostly what soldiers do anyway.

More importantly, like I said, these are fantasy characters, and it's important to invest them w/ that, including the abilities they have.  If the concept is "indomitable melee tank" and someone wants to take a dip into Deepwarden to sell that concept, I think that's a very good, if meta-, justification.  And, I'd challenge anyone who is anti-dipping to prove otherwise.

Unbeliever

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2010, 03:38:49 AM »
General response to this trend of Endaire threads.

Hoods why the dislike?

Rolls for hide check...
Brilliant

And, yeah, Endaire, you may want to roll these all up into one thread or something. 

Finally, is this the right place for this discussion?  I don't mean is this forum, but is BG?  I somehow doubt there are a lot of "dipping = bad, Hulk smash dipping" folks around here, but I could be wrong.

Solo

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2010, 03:41:20 AM »
Quote
Real life example:  in WWII the Thompson Machinegun was primarily used w/ the standard clip rather than the higher-capacity drum; the drum would be strictly superior in game terms, but it was harder to carry on the strap for long periods of time, which is mostly what soldiers do anyway.

It was also more expensive and the higher ups probably decided not to issue it widely as a result, since stick magazines were cheaper to make.

Soldiers did not get much of a choice when it comes to their equipment. This makes your example invalid.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 03:42:55 AM by Solo »

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Unbeliever

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2010, 03:44:17 AM »
Quote
Real life example:  in WWII the Thompson Machinegun was primarily used w/ the standard clip rather than the higher-capacity drum; the drum would be strictly superior in game terms, but it was harder to carry on the strap for long periods of time, which is mostly what soldiers do anyway.

It was also more expensive and the higher ups probably decided not to issue it widely as a result, since stick magazines were cheaper to make.

Soldiers did not get much of a choice when it comes to their equipment. This makes your example invalid.
I was aware of the jamming, though decided not to mention it, perhaps b/c it's the sort of thing that would be more likely to be accounted for in mechanics.  Sore shoulder mechanics are pretty rare ... we'd probably have to go to GURPS or Rolemaster for that  ;)

Endarire

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 03:44:44 AM »
This was a testing ground for GitP.  If you insist, I'll repost it there today.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

ninjarabbit

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2010, 08:42:06 AM »
2 reasons:

-Holdover mentality from 2nd edition

-People not understanding the system and game balance as a whole, this is the same crowd who think core is balanced

Ivory Knight

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2010, 10:29:14 AM »
I have no problems with dipping, be it as a Player, or as the DM.
Some of my buddies DO have serious issues with anything
- beyond Core
- using more than 1 PrC
- not finishing PrC, before taking another
- I'd like to play(because if I want it, it must be broken :rollseyes)

If questioned about it, most of them reply with a stereotyped
- don't have that book myself(lame)
- don't have time to read it, even if you have it(even lamer, I'd even tell them what they need to know)
- anything newer than Complete Warrior is probably full of Powercreep and thus not allowed in my games
- Why do you need that, can't you play a [insert PHB-Class here] instead?

One of the silliest things about it is, that I played
Archerclerics(they don't loose much, only Zen Archery and Elf Domain are outside of Core)
Druids(we all know, they only need Natural Spell and maybe Augment Summoning)
a Rogue, abusing the shit out of UMD & Skillmastery(and said DM allowed custom Magic Items, bad move :smirk)

without any of them ever raising an eyebrow(until around Level 8, 10 for the Rogue) when the other Players started whining :banghead

Widow

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2010, 01:43:20 PM »
My favorite is when the DM has predetermined ideas about what the classes do.  I played in one game where the DM insisted that the Fighter should have the highest AC because he was the front line guy.  Meanwhile the level 10 fighter was a two-handed weapon weilder and had no interest in heavy armor or Dex.  The cleric had to hang up his heavy plate (obivously the DM never played 2nd edition right either, when was the cleric not a tank).  What are you suppost to do if the preconceived class is run by a novice or is purposely retasked for a different role?  For instance, I was thinking about playing a Fighter 8/ Divine Crusader 8/ Contemplative 2/Heirophant 2 with a concentration on Cha in an upcoming dragonlance campaign (no divine magic at level 1, comes in later like the novels).  I guess no one else can have a higher strenght than me (unless there is a barbarian), even if I set it at 12.

When I have ran or played games I don't care if people dip or not.  The only time I would step in as a DM was when a player dipped himself out of being effective, and then I would only make suggestions for a better build following his original theme.

For my own personal builds, I often start with the most complicated build (IE, most different classes) and pare back from there to a simiplier build that can do it almost as well.  I feel the build is a little cleaner if it can get most of the stuff I want done with less levels.

Bard 1/ cleric 1/ master spell theif 1/ Marshall 1/ Battle dancer 1/ Eldrich Master 1/ Dweomerkeeper 1/ Eldrich master 3/ Sublime chord 1/ Dweomerkeeper 9  

to

Bard 4/Cleric 1/Eldrich Master 5/Sublime Chord 9/Eldrich master 1

Having a caster level of 33 at level 20 was probably not going to fly with the DM.

Edit: i guess the only dipping I don't like is for Prestige classes that take alot of RP to get into and the player only takes a single level and ventures off to get into another class that takes alot of RP.

Also I find it useful sometimes to make my own class.  For instance, pick whatever mess of classes you are going to take, make a progression with whatever abilities they get, and rebrand it as a new class.  I have found that to be helpful with a few DM's who get stuck on the mechanics and is just confused in general about your build.  I have also seen this in a number of dragon magazine articles and third party books, as ways to make a certain themed character for a particlar setting.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 01:55:03 PM by Widow »

Unbeliever

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2010, 02:53:21 PM »
My favorite is when the DM has predetermined ideas about what the classes do.  I played in one game where the DM insisted that the Fighter should have the highest AC because he was the front line guy.  Meanwhile the level 10 fighter was a two-handed weapon weilder and had no interest in heavy armor or Dex.  The cleric had to hang up his heavy plate (obivously the DM never played 2nd edition right either, when was the cleric not a tank).  What are you suppost to do if the preconceived class is run by a novice or is purposely retasked for a different role?  
+1

I had this experience actually w/ someone who was trying to get me into Pathfinder, and it pretty effectively succeeded at scaring me away from the entire system.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2010, 03:24:50 PM »
As a player i hate heavy dipping. It makes a build ugly (at least to my perception). My favorite builds are single classed or with a single prestige class.
As a DM, depending on the players, i may restrict multiclassing. I only do this when i'm playing with those newer inexperienced optimizers, who think that a stack-all-the-sneak-attack-classes-that-you-can is great optimization (and they end up with abysmal BAB and saves), to protect them.
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Prime32

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2010, 03:33:24 PM »
As a player i hate heavy dipping. It makes a build ugly (at least to my perception). My favorite builds are single classed or with a single prestige class.
As a DM, depending on the players, i may restrict multiclassing. I only do this when i'm playing with those newer inexperienced optimizers, who think that a stack-all-the-sneak-attack-classes-that-you-can is great optimization (and they end up with abysmal BAB and saves), to protect them.
Or you could use fractional saves...
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2010, 03:42:14 PM »
As a player i hate heavy dipping. It makes a build ugly (at least to my perception). My favorite builds are single classed or with a single prestige class.
As a DM, depending on the players, i may restrict multiclassing. I only do this when i'm playing with those newer inexperienced optimizers, who think that a stack-all-the-sneak-attack-classes-that-you-can is great optimization (and they end up with abysmal BAB and saves), to protect them.
Or you could use fractional saves...

And BAB, yeah. But then i'm thinking about those builds they're gonna make and i'm completely grossed out :P
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Solo

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2010, 04:56:16 PM »
As a player i hate heavy dipping. It makes a build ugly (at least to my perception). My favorite builds are single classed or with a single prestige class.
What about Fistbeard Beardfist? :p

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fuinjutsu

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2010, 05:07:49 PM »
Dipping helps melee classes suck slightly less vis-a-vis casters.  That's the only relevant info, as far as i'm concerned.

The problem is getting people to understand that D&D plays Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards very straight.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

atewi

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2010, 05:11:37 PM »
Because, and this is solely my opinion, the more a person dips the more likely he is going to be perceived as a munchkin.  If I saw a build with 4 one level dips I would think something fishy is going on, and would investigate as much as I can.  Like stacking five templates on one side of a Gestalt build, it just looks incriminating.

That being said I see nothing wrong with multiclassing in general, but taking a 1 level dip, five times, reflects badly.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 05:34:18 PM by atewi »

Bastian

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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2010, 05:15:47 PM »
Because, and this is solely my opinion, the more a person dips the more likely he is going to be perceived as a munchkin.  If I saw a build with 4 one level dips I would think something fishy is going on, and would investigate as much as I can.  Like stacking five templates on one side of a Gestalt build, it just looks incriminating.
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Re: Multiclassing and Dipping: Why the dislike?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2010, 05:25:02 PM »
2 reasons:

-Holdover mentality from 2nd edition

-People not understanding the system and game balance as a whole, this is the same crowd who think core is balanced

This, bigtime.  At least with the group that I've played with.  After playing 2nd Edition the whole idea of dips and prestige classes was just a foreign concept.  However, I saw both the potential for abuse and the potential to flesh out a character a lot more.  Sure, you can roleplay your character as a certain class, but as I read somewhere else, are you a Ninja because you say you are, or are you a Ninja because you can: Hide in the shadows, use poision, climb up walls, disappear in a flash of smoke, etc.

When I'm DM'ing, if a player wants to dip several times, I allow it, within reason.  If a player is playing a Paladin with levels in Barbarian, he had better have a good backstory.  But as long as it makes sense, or makes for an interesting character, it's all good. 
I find that if I help other players in my group optimize while still maintaining their character concept, they are much more receptive to allowing dipping and such when they DM.  Leading by example works very well.