Gestalt Front Line Lycanthrope

[hawk1816]

I don't think I'll ever play this but the build has kept popping into my head.  Maybe now that I flesh it out I can sleep at night ;p In reality I'd love to play it but I've moved cities... maybe a pbp?

Wall of text
[spoiler]I started out with lycanthrope because its the thing that has been pulling at my brain.  I also love the Deepwarden 2 dip so I knew that I wanted to do that part.  I thought maximizing CON for both HP and Armor was great for a front line guy.  Next on the list of survivability is saves, so I went endurance-> Steadfast Determination.  Then sought out both reflex and mettle, first went Kensai for concentration instead of reflex, but figured Forsaker's Imp Evasion was better, plus it has mettle.  Now I can fight in Cloudkill and be unaffected.  Still not sold on Forsaker though, you give up a lot.  Warshaper is obvious for Lycanthrope. Ranger has good feats, skills and BAB, and fighter for the feat.  I need at least 4 levels on the other side with full BAB to cover Warshaper.  I was thinking barbarian would make sense.  Then maybe Scout, thinking this is mostly a charge build.  If I could somehow get flight as a SU or EX in 11 class levels that would be superb. [/spoiler]

Basically right now this is a guy who would RP that he doesn't need anyone else, least of all a spell caster. Heals on his own, can one shot kill most anything he can charge. Has good DR and SR and a huge armor and HP, with great saves and save related abilities.


Character: (I have this all in a sweet XL but I'm new here and don't know how to do tables on here)
Were-Tiger 6+3(HD+LA)/ Unsure 11// Ranger (Strong Arm Varient) 3/ Fighter 1/ Forsaker 10/ Deepwarden 2/ Warshaper 4

[spoiler]LVL   Tract 1   Tract 2
1   Ranger           Tiger
2   Ranger            Tiger
3   Ranger           Tiger
4   Fighter           Tiger
5   Forsaker           Tiger
6   Forsaker           Tiger
7   DeepWarden   LVL adjustment
8   DeepWarden   LVL adjustment
9   Forsaker           LVL adjustment
10   Warshaper   
11   Warshaper   
12   Warshaper   
13   Warshaper   
14   Forsaker   
15   Forsaker   
16   Forsaker   
17   Forsaker   
18   Forsaker   
19   Forsaker   
20   Forsaker   [/spoiler]

Ablility Score

[spoiler]32 Point Buy

STR  16 DEX  10 CON  18 INT   10 WIS  8 CHA  10

LVL 20 Shifted
STR  39
DEX  15
CON  44
INT   14
WIS  12
CHA  8[/spoiler]

HP: 8 + 6d8 + 12d12 + 1d10 + 340 = 458
Saves: 38/15/28 though it may improved depending on the saves of the unsure classes

Feats: (2 unassigned) Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack (Ranger), Iron Will, Endurance (Ranger), Great Fortitude (Fighter), Steadfast Determination, Track (Deepwarden), Shock Trooper, Leap Attack

Abilities: Abilities +8/+6/+4/+2, Signature Weapons +5 silver cold iron, DR 5/-, DR 10/silver, Spell Resistance 25, Fast Healing 3, improved evasion, mettle, slippery mind, Stone Warden (Con instead of Dex to Armor), Tough Defense (Con bonus to Nat Armor), anti-magic strike, spellfire destruction,
Shifted: +4 Str and Con, 10' reach, immune to critical hits and stuns, Fast Healing 5

Gear: Masterwork Composite Longbow

Tactics: Fight in Tiger form.  If charge doesn't kill, something is weird.  Use Spellfire Destruction to make a spell caster shut up.  Large STR makes Spellfire Destruction last a long time.  Would probably flee ranged combat, but if cornered could us bow.  Charging is king though.

Mechanics: Would ask DM for the 3 Signature Weapons count as Bite, Claws (including rake attacks, so 4 total), and then Bow.  It would suck if rake attacks were unaltered. 

Link to Forsaker
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Forsaker_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29


Anyway, suggestions on the build would be great.  I have 2 feats free and 11 free class levels.  I know Lycanthrope isn't the best charge build, but that's the idea this nucleated around so I'd like to keep it.  Better ways to boost saves than Forsaken are welcome.  I'm not familiar with ToB, so I can't really respond to those classes effectiveness, though I imagine they would help a lot.  If I wasn't restricted to only bases classes on the left side due to gestalt rules I think warhulk would be interesting.  Thanks in advance for any insight fun tricks.

[Maat_Mons]

The change to con from alternate form does not effect HP.  It's in the errata.  If you want more HP, you should go with tauric (MMII) instead. 

You should go with a 4 HD dire badger instead of a tiger.  That gives you +12 str, +2 dex, and +12 con (due to the size increase).  Dire badger also gives you +4 str, +4 con, and -2 dex as soon as you take damage in combat if you use the tauric template. 

You can add on fist of the forest (Complete Champion) to gain your con bonus to AC again when you do not wear armor or use a shield. 

[hawk1816]

I don't have books around... did this off of memory and crystal keep.  I don't know tauric off the top of my head :/

I took tiger because of pounce, again not optimal build, but I think it makes it a little more offensive, especially with the other feats. 

Does the warshaper bonus to Con that you only get when in alternate form give you HP?

Fist of the Forest looks cool.  I don't have it in front of me to completely stat up, but I see you get that at 1st level and there are threads about it for this use.  Awesome addition thanks

[hawk1816]

Also what are thoughts about Forsaker staking with Vow of Poverty.  I wouldn't be giving up much more than I already am with Forsaker, and I think the unnamed ability bonuses stack and it gives regeneration and energy resistances. Being locked into good pigeon holes the character a bit, but I can see RPing the char as a hero of the people who is a lycanthrope due to some wizards experimentation, explaining the gestalt nature, and also his hatred for magic.

[weenog]

Needs more Dex.  Reaction time counts so you charge them instead of the other way around.  Also, Combat Reflexes.  You want this, and Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit to go with it.  You will be taking some hits, especially if you use the heedless charge bit of Shock Trooper, and you've got some relatively respectable DR for being a natural lycanthrope.  Might as well embrace it, and hit back harder.

EDIT: Regarding Forsaker/VoP, that's never as good an idea as it seems for a character like this.  It sounds like a cool idea, totally spurning magic, but it doesn't really work.  You only get away with giving up magic gear completely if you bring enough magic to the table that you don't need extra.  A druid can get away with it, they can fly with wild shape, have their own spellcasting, etc.  A brute force beatstick is going to be laughed at and killed by the first flying ranged attacker they meet, even a low level one.  Dex can provide some help (not a lot, but maybe enough) here, too.  A good composite longbow keyed to a very high strength modifier can be pretty important if some jackass you can't reach is peppering you with arrows or damaging magic.  Of course, you can't own one if you have Vow of Poverty...

[hawk1816]

Weenog

Point taken about initiative.  My original thought process assumed I would be buffed by a party member prob with invisibility and we'd be the aggressors, but with Forsaker that's not an option.  As per your point about flying ranged attacker, I already have that limitation for the most part with Forsaker, in that I can't find an ability to fly. VoP would take away the composite longbow, but in reality that's just fancy spackle to cover an inherent weakness.  If their flight/ranged attack was subject to dispelling/spellfire destruction I am ok, but otherwise I really can't do much and need to rely on party members.  This is the downfall of most melee classes though.

Side note. From DnD wiki (I don't have the book here):

Signature Weapon
[spoiler]Signature Weapons (Ex):  At Level 1, the Forsaker must choose up to 3 Masterwork Weapons (Or Masterwork Bracers/Handwraps if he wishes to have his unarmed strike as one of his signature weapons.) to serve as his Signature Weapons. These Signature Weapons are treated as Natural Weapons, but only for the Forsaker they are attuned to. If he does not have any of his Signature Weapons on his person, the Forsaker loses the use of his Anti-Magic Strike, Natural Weapons (X) abilities, Spellfire Destruction, Damage Reduction, and Spell Resistance. Also, at Levels 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10, the Forsaker gains an Enhancement Bonus to attack and damage rolls with his Signature Weapons equal to 1/2 his Forsaker Level, rounded down. Finally, for the sake of Feats such as from the Weapon Focus Tree, the Forsaker may choose "Signature Weapons." So if a Forsaker took Weapon Focus (Signature Weapons), he would receive a +1 Bonus to his attack rolls with All three of his Signature Weapons. If the Forsaker loses one of his Signature Weapons, he may select a new Masterwork Weapon to serve as his signature weapon by practicing with it for one hour. [/spoiler]

Anti-magic Strike
[spoiler]Anti-Magic Strike (Su):  When attacking a Creature or Object, the Forsaker can choose to reduce his damage by half to duplicate the effects of a Targeted Dispel Magic. Instead of making a Caster level check Vs DC 11+Spellcaster's Level, the Forsaker makes an Attack Roll. If his attack roll (with all relevant modifiers) meets or exceeds the DC of the Dispel Check, then the Target is subjected to the Effects of a Targeted Dispel Magic. [/spoiler]

Spellfire Destruction
[spoiler]Spellfire Destruction (Ex):  On an Attack, a Forsaker may choose to deal no damage to his Target. If the Target is a spellcaster, or has any Supernatural or Spell-Like Abilities, they are suppressed for 1d4 + X Modifier Rounds (Where X equals the Ability score used to make the Attack. Thus a Forsaker with Weapon Finesse would Use Dexterity, whereas a Forsaker with Zen Archery would use Wisdom) unless they make a Fortitude Save equal to (10 + 1/2 the Forsaker's Character Level + Forsaker's X Modifier). [/spoiler]

No where does it say that I have to use the natural weapon, I just need it on my person.  Is that a correct reading? So I could make a ranged attack with a bunch of crappy javelins w/o throwing one of my natural weapons?  Obviously it wouldn't get the +5 silver cold iron, but that's situational.

[Maat_Mons]

Does the warshaper bonus to Con that you only get when in alternate form give you HP?

That is a good question.  Warshaper was published before the change to alternate form and there was no errata or clerification on the matter.  I interpret morphic body to be a separate bonus even though you only gain it when using alternate form.  If that is correct, you gain bonus HP from it.  

I can't find an ability to fly.

You could use raptoran (Races of the Wild) as your race and qualify for deepwarden with stoneblessed (Races of stone).  Raptoran gives you glide immediately, limited flight at 5th level, and unlimited flight at 10th level.  Stoneblessed 3 gives you +2 con, the ability to count as a dwarf for all prerequisites, and several of a dwarf's other racial abilities.  

You could also use dire bat.  That gives you flight, +6 str, +12 dex, and +6 con.  If you use the 5 HD version, it gives you flight, +14 str, +10 dex, and +10 con.  

Edit: One option to fill out those levels you have empty on one side is more level adjustment.  You would want a template that can be taken 1 level at a time, can be acquired mid-game, and provides melee combat boosts.  Half dragon works.  You could take it 4 times for +32 str, +8 con, +8 int, +8 cha, and +16 natural armor. 

[snakeman830]

Forget Forsaker.  You lose too much.  Evasion can be purchased for 25k.  Mettle can be gotten in a number of ways (including Crusader 13).  Crusader is a good choice for tanks and especially for one with the combat style you seem to want.  White Raven manuvers for charging and Devoted Spirit for self-healing and durability.

And the eratta never addressed lycanthrope HP.  The original book, however, did state that the improved Con score from animal or hybrid form only applies to the animal HD for HP.

[Maat_Mons]

The original book, however, did state that the improved Con score from animal or hybrid form only applies to the animal HD for HP.

It said you used the con from your animal form for your animal HD and the con from your humanoid form for all other HD.  The con from your hybrid form should be higher than both of those, but was never used.  

Since this build would have racial HD opposite class level, for those levels you would presumably use the constitution modifier from either your animal or humanoid form, whichever is better, assuming you determine HP as stated in the lycanthrope entry.  

[snakeman830]

The original book, however, did state that the improved Con score from animal or hybrid form only applies to the animal HD for HP.

It said you used the con from your animal form for your animal HD and the con from your humanoid form for all other HD.  The con from your hybrid form should be higher than both of those, but was never used. 

Since this build would have racial HD opposite class level, for those levels you would presumably use the constitution modifier from either your animal or humanoid form, whichever is better, assuming you determine HP as stated in the lycanthrope entry. 

Read the entry again.  Your ability scores for animal and hybrid forms are the same.  Your scores aren't replaced, but adjusted dependant on the animal.

[Maat_Mons]

Huh, I was certain the animal form used the base creature's unmodified ability scores and only the hybrid form added the animal's modifiers to the humanoid's ability scores. 

Well, I apologize for only going so far as to verify that the HP in the entries are consistent with using the animal form's con modifier for the animal HD before responding, assuming I was right about the hybrid form having a higher con modifier than the animal form, and not directly comparing the hybrid form's con modifier. 

I wonder what I was thinking of.  Hengeyokai? 

[Sohala]

Two flaws to get it, and assumes that you are allowed to take generic classes. Was running out of ideas towards the end but I think it could be fun. Swap things around as you see fit but I think the templates require that order, or at least close to it. You will want to get a total of 17 Dex for perfect flight.

[spoiler]Arctic Dwarf

Lycn/generic warrior sacred vow/vop/LF/GF
Lycn/generic warrior IW
Lycn/Forsaker PA
RHD/Forsaker
RHD/Forsaker
RHD/Forsaker Endure
RHD/Forsaker
Feral/Forsaker
Winged/Forsaker SFD
Winged/Forsaker
Spellwarped/Forsaker
Spellwarped/Forsaker Shock trooper
Spellwarped/Deepwarden
HalfGD/Deepwarden
HalfGD/Warshaper Leap attack
HalfGD/Warshaper
Saint/Warshaper
Saint/Crusader Adaptive Style
Swordsage/Warshaper
Warblade/Monk[/spoiler]

[hawk1816]

@ Maat_Mons

Raptorian does look cool, I didn't know about stoneblessed.  I think at this point I'm going to have to ask the DM to let me do dual prestige class progression though.  The half dragon lvl progression looks cool too.  Maybe I could convince the DM that it applied to the tiger not the dwarf so I would get wings for being large size.  Or maybe they grow out in the hybrid form.  The visual of that idea is awesome.  The numbers from the like you posted don't match with "+32 str, +8 con, +8 int, +8 cha, and +16 natural armor".

@ snakeman830

I'm still up in the air about Forsaker... Taking it with VoP and having flying with Raptorian does seem pretty cool.  I can't really speak to any ToB builds though because I have never seen the book

@ Sohala

I like Arctic Dwarf if I don't do Raptorian, I didn't even think about maximizing the Dwarf pick.  I am confused about the generic warrior part, specifically why its not a fighter?  Also I'm assuming RHD is the animal for lycanthropy, but I don't know the abbreviation.  I'm assuming winged is a template, but I am unfamiliar with it.  If I get SR from Forsaker, do I really need Spellwarped? And then finally why three 1st level ToB classes at the end?  Does it have to do with stances?  Again I'm not familiar with ToB so this may be really cool I just don't know why.  I like the move for Forsaker so early, I think I'll change it up to do that.  Also is the monk at the end supposed to be Fist of the Forest?

Thanks to all of you for helping. I know you have more experience than me at this and I really appreciate it.  I apologize I should have stated my breadth of knowledge for books is rather limited, and I don't have access to the ones I don't know off the top of my head because I moved to a different town. 

[Maat_Mons]

The numbers from the like you posted don't match with "+32 str, +8 con, +8 int, +8 cha, and +16 natural armor".

Half-dragon can be taken multiple times, selecting a different kind of dragon each time.  Those numbers assume you spend 12 levels to take half-dragon 4 times. 

I'm assuming RHD is the animal for lycanthropy, but I don't know the abbreviation.

Racial hit dice. 

[Saxony]

If you want really good saves and you have a massive Constitution, look into the Tome of Battle's maneuvers from Diamond Mind discipline which replace saving throws with a Concentration check. They are Moment of Perfect Mind (1st level Diamond Maneuver), Action Before Thought (2nd level Diamond Maneuver), and Mind Over Body (3rd level Diamond Maneuver). The first one replaces a Will Save with a Conc Check, the second one replaces a Reflex Save, and the third one replaces a Fortitude Save.

You probably won't need the last one since your Fort save will already be really good. To get a 2nd level manuever, you need an Initiator Level of 3. To get that, you can either take three levels in a Martial Adept class (Warblade, Swordage, Crusader, or almost any Prestige Class in Tome of Battle), or just take 6 levels in any other classes, or take 4 levels in any other classes and then take a 1 level dip into a Martial Adept class to get the maneuvers. I would suggest taking a level of Warblade because they can choose which maneuvers they access to in battle (unlike the Crusader) and can get refresh their maneuvers while in battle very easily (unlike the Swordsage). Since you only want to ready 3 maneuvers at the maximum anyway, Warblade would be good for you.

[snakeman830]

Crusaders choose which manuvers they ready.  They just don't choose which of those readied manuvers they have access to at any given time.

[Sohala]

I am confused about the generic warrior part, specifically why its not a fighter?

Any feat and Any skills.

Also I'm assuming RHD is the animal for lycanthropy, but I don't know the abbreviation.

Dire badger Racial hit dice, since it had been metioned, and with feral you don't need tiger for pounce.

I'm assuming winged is a template, but I am unfamiliar with it.

Gives land speed+20 as flight with maneuverability based on dex score, which is why I said 17, gives +4 dex +2 wis.

If I get SR from Forsaker, do I really need Spellwarped?

With the Forsaker you have it is not as good of combination (though yours has a lot more fun stuff to it), but the SR still stacks some, plus if someone fails to get by your SR you get a bonus.

And then finally why three 1st level ToB classes at the end?  Does it have to do with stances?  Again I'm not familiar with ToB so this may be really cool I just don't know why.

Well, all three might have over done it, two would probably be a better bet, still first level of each one would give a decent count of options. I dropped them up at the end to maximize Initiator Level, you get .5 per each level without a ToB class. This is not to say you can't take them earlier and still get alot of fun stuff, they really were more of an afterthought. 

Also is the monk at the end supposed to be Fist of the Forest?

That actually would be a good idea; I was truly running out of time and ideas there at the end. Now you could drop a ToB class and then pick up FotF while keep monk for more AC. (Well they might not stack, never done it before)

[Saxony]

Crusaders choose which manuvers they ready.  They just don't choose which of those readied manuvers they have access to at any given time.

Sorry about that, you're right.

[ksbsnowowl]

Half-Vampire 1/Rogue or Scout 4/Berserk 3 (D&Dg)//Lion-totem Barbarian 5 (CC)/Ranger 3 would get almost the same thing as your weretiger, but wouldn't have to suck up 6 animal HD or 3 LA.  You get pounce from Barb, your speed would be 40 ft (or 50 ft with scout levels), and you can assume the form of a totem beast shape once per day (or a hybrid thereof).  A brown bear would be pretty good with the bite and 2 claw attacks (and remember, you can still pounce with it).

Half-Vampire is there to give you a touch of "lycanthrope" flavor, in that it can give you DR 5/Silver or Magic, but also has the added benefit of giving you fast healing 1 (up to half HP's).  You could probably pull off something similar by getting your DM to approve Beast Shape to count as Wildshape for the purposes of Nature's Warrior (which could give you fast healing 1 while in a different form).

Lycanthropes just suck that much as a PC race.

[hawk1816]

@ Sohala

I think the feats I need would be available to fighters, but point taken about skill points.  

As for Dire Badger, it doesn't have rake, so unless feral grants that, the difference between 3 and 5 attacks on a pounce is significant, especially if I'm going to be sacrificing hits for dispelling with Forsaker.  

Winged seems awesome.  

Forsaker does have rules for stacking SR which does seem cool, but it specifically says 10+x or 15+x and crystalkeep has spelltouched as an 11+X.  So if it stacks awesome otherwise its only 6 higher... not sure if its worth 3 levels.

Makes sense, especially being told that other classes count as .5.  Damn I wish I had that book ;p

FoTF wasn't my idea, but it is a damn good one.  Thanks to Maat_Mons for that one.

Side note, saint says "Gain Fast Healing (HD/2)." Does that only affect racial HD or is it character lvl.  The latter being awesome.  I also don't know entry requirements for FoTF so unfortunately I can't stat up a character right now :/

@ ksbsnowowl

I know Lycanthropy is sub-par, especially for this board.  I've realized I like it because it gives great stat bonuses, without just stacking a bunch of templates on over and over.  It's an RP element as well as a means to an end.  I could probably get better bonuses a lot of other ways... but I like it for now.  This isn't really a true min-max, I don't even have spell casting, its just trying to beef up the concept.  I've always played with DM's that had to approve templates, but they didn't really mess with the creative energies of classes, so I've tried to limit templates.  I realize that this creation has moved away from that, for it calls for some templates (ie winged), but if the DM doesn't like all the templates I think I'll still get lycanthrope, and a generally playable, albeit not super-powerful, build.  
I'm also light on books so my inventiveness for concepts is rather limited.  Lycanthrope is SRD  

Edit: Badger's rage specifically says you rage until your opponent is dead.  That combined with VoP seems silly 

Also a huge thanks for all the help/advice/builds/criticism, its all been great and constructive, and most of all fun.  It's just been fun to be going over all of this in my head.  I think I enjoy character ideas as much as the game itself... maybe because I've spent more time making up characters than actually having the opportunity to play them ;p