Author Topic: Looking for a Psionic Gish.  (Read 13675 times)

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Samb

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2010, 01:37:04 AM »
There's nothing wrong with utilizing the most versatile power(s) in the book to expand your role. A psychic warrior can use any 6th level power or below, and the way psionics scales through augmentation, this means that a psychic warrior can use 9th level-equivalent powers, even if his power list only technically goes up to 6.
[/quote]
A 9th power is still a 9th power, a 6th level power is still a 6th level power.  No matter how you say it a PW power like breath of the black dragon will ever compare to a psion/wilder power like temporal acceleration, fission, or even acheive the versatility reality revision or greater metamorph.  All these powers are high level powers not because of the PP spent but be cause their effects are just plain better. 

If anything gish put more emphasis on getting high level powers/spells than feats and BAB.  The entry on Githyanki Gish in MM3 gives it more caster levels.

PW isn't a full manifester period.  That's doesn't mean its a bad class, it's just not gish.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2010, 01:56:38 AM »
There's nothing wrong with utilizing the most versatile power(s) in the book to expand your role. A psychic warrior can use any 6th level power or below, and the way psionics scales through augmentation, this means that a psychic warrior can use 9th level-equivalent powers, even if his power list only technically goes up to 6.
A 9th power is still a 9th power, a 6th level power is still a 6th level power.  No matter how you say it a PW power like breath of the black dragon will ever compare to a psion/wilder power like temporal acceleration, fission, or even acheive the versatility reality revision or greater metamorph.  All these powers are high level powers not because of the PP spent but be cause their effects are just plain better. 

If anything gish put more emphasis on getting high level powers/spells than feats and BAB.  The entry on Githyanki Gish in MM3 gives it more caster levels.

PW isn't a full manifester period.  That's doesn't mean its a bad class, it's just not gish.
It's not a full manifester? You mean, that it doesn't have the 20/20 manifester levels that it does, indeed, have?

Maybe you should actually read the class in question?
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veekie

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2010, 02:00:01 AM »
^^
I think he means that it does not inherently have 9th level powers, even if it has powers that can be augmented that far. On the other hand, the crapton of bonus psionic/fighter feats sorta even it out if you want to melee well.

If you're looking towards more frontline type powers, Psywar is pretty fine, seeing as the convenient combat buffs aren't as easy to get for a psion.

Wilder would be more appropriate if you want to be a more even mix of magic and melee, instead of magic enhanced melee. Expanded Knowledge can fill the holes in either direction.
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bananaphone

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2010, 03:12:24 AM »
If you could get it approved by your DM, and if he allowed a psionic version of haste, an Ardent/Swiftblade would be quite nice. 

Samb

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2010, 03:27:24 AM »
It's not a full manifester? You mean, that it doesn't have the 20/20 manifester levels that it does, indeed, have?

Maybe you should actually read the class in question?
Full manifesting as in getting all 9 levels, which I assumed you understood since you said: "6th powers of a PW can equal a 9th level power"

Getting into semantics now is a bit insulting, and your tone doesn't help.  No matter what spin you put, a PW can't learn 7th-9th powers, and it can't take any psion/wilder powers from 6-9th level with EK.  Even it's 6th level powers suck when compared to just temporal acceleration. 

You could somewhat get around this by taking mantled variant, which will allow for temp accel, or any 7-9th level powers from an item but that lends even more support to "just pick wilder or ardent" hence hurting your case.

Samb

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2010, 03:40:31 AM »
Oh and check out Untapped Potential for more psionic options.  The racial paragon classes and the racial sub levels are great.  Nothing for Githyanki (ie real gish) or githzerthi though since they are not open source :(

carnivore

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2010, 08:14:47 AM »
unless a PW build is Mainly PW with little or No Multiclassing .... the Bonus Feats are irrelavant ... notice:

PW 20 vs Psion 20

PW 20
BAB +15
d8 HD
8 Bonus Feats
20 powers Known(6th lvl and Below)
127 PP

Psion 20
BAB +10
d4 HD
5 Bonus Feats
24 powers Known(6th lvl and Below)
3 @7th lvl Powers Known
3 @8th lvl Powers Known
6 @9th lvl Powers Known
343 PP

so a PW has More Hp(average 40 total) and BAB(+5 more) and 3 more bonus feats as opposed to 7th- 9th lvl Powers, 216 PP

but most Gish Builds wont be like that for either one ...... more like this:

Psion 10/ Slayer 10 vs Psychic Warrior 10/ Slayer 10

Psychic Warrior 10/ Slayer 10
BAB +17
d8 HD
4 Bonus Feats
19 powers Known(6th lvl and Below)
115 PP


Psion 10/ Slayer 10
BAB +15
d4 HD +d8 HD
3 Bonus Feats
24 powers Known(6th lvl and Below)
3 @7th lvl Powers Known
3 @8th lvl Powers Known
4 @9th lvl Powers Known
311 PP

now the comparison is even less favorable for the PW.... since they are far closer from a Martial point of view:
so a PW has More Hp(average 20 total) and BAB(+2 more) and 1 more bonus feats as opposed to 7th- 9th lvl Powers, 196 PP


PWs cant really keep up with a Psion for Gish uses

 :D

GawainBS

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2010, 11:41:50 AM »
I consider the PW a gish, and even the Duskblade, if I broaden the meaning. I do understand why you limit "Gish" to BAB 16+ and 9th spells/powers, though, since it implies that it excells in both fields.

I'm a lot more intrested in Psion-based gishes, though, if only because they're INT based. Thanks carnivore for pointing out that two ToB dips are better than one. ;-)

KellKheraptis

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2010, 02:05:15 PM »
There is always the Erudite...Erudite 6/Ghostbreaker 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Chronorebel 4 gets the full StP goodies, is Int based, 19/20 manifesting with 16 BAB, all good saves (I think like 12/10/14...I posted it before in my Chrono-Legionaire update thread), every power you want, and Body Outside Body, for every spell and power ever.  Oh, and once you've dropped your buffs, feel free to manifest a linked PsyRef whilst within a Temporal Acceleration, for free feat formatting (beep-beep entering 'Hood mode).  Once you're done, PsyRef 'em back the same way you had them.
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carnivore

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2010, 02:20:07 PM »
Ardents make great Wis based Gishes  ..... perhaps the Best, combined with Monk and Slayer ...awesome.. like this:

Ardent 4/ Monk 2/ Warblade 2/ Crusader 2/ Slayer 10

BAB+18
17th lvl ML(with Practiced Manifester) = 9th lvl Powers
11th lvl Initiator with 6th lvl Manuvers for both Warblade and Crusader
12th lvl Monk Abilities(AC, Unarmed Damage, Greater Flurry) , because of Monastic training(Slayer), Tashalatora(Slayer)... can boost Unarmed Damage farther with Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick... also Monks Belt... can use Sword with Flurry with Whirling Steel Strike

lots of options, great lasting power .... hard to beat


Erudite or Psion can both be used to make great Int based Gish types.... and can make similar builds to the above build with Carmondine Monk(Monk abilities are based on Int)

Wilder can be used for a Cha based Psi-Gish .... especially with a Social Focus like this:

Marshal 1/ Wilder 8/ Pious Templar 1/ Slayer 10

great Defensive abilities and social abilities ....

 :D
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 04:17:19 PM by carnivore »

Samb

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2010, 02:38:50 PM »
As carivore pointed out and as should be common knowledge, PW has pathetic PP making an even weaker case for it being a Gish class.

I still think a wilder or ardent would suit you better as they are ALREADY Gish classes out of the box.  They have less powers that a psion but same amount of PP as a psion.

Ardent has great action economy since it doesn't expend focus to use linked power and can do lots of damage with stacking metapsi feats.

Wilders will have higher DC and better chance of overcoming resistance making them better for save-or-die/suck/lose power.  They also are better frontliners thanks to surging euphoria.

I'm personally not a fan of Slayer. Other than full BAB what does it have going for it? 
Ardents give up 2 mantles.
wildersgive up 2 EK (educated ACF), wild surge, one lvl9 power  and surging euphoria progression.
Psywar gives up 3 feats (4 if you include Track), one lvl6 power and a least 15 PP
Slayer is okay for psions but you still only end up with 15 BAB at the end which is what wilders and ardents would end up with WITHOUT and PrC.   

Psion has the most powers, least BAB, least HP. Overchannel deals d8 damage to a class with d4 HD and needs 15 levels to do what a wilder can do by level 7. Anyone who tells you wild surge= overchannel doesn't know math.

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2010, 02:46:37 PM »
The selective Mind Blank effect and Breach Power Resistance have a lot to do with Slayer being so good (the latter is quite useful for a gish).  It's also really easy to qualify for.  The fact it also has full BAB and a bigger HD don't hurt in the slightest.
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sir_argenon

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2010, 04:45:21 PM »
the argument that PW cannot keep up with psion/wilder/ardent as the manifesting base for a psi-gish is correct, but its silly nevertheless.  thats like comparing whether duskblade or wizard is better as an arcane gish. its no comparison at all.

in the original gish thread on 339, there were many levels of gish builds all the way up to +16 (or more) bab and 9th lvl spells, but the ones below that mark were also considered to be gish too.  based on the many builds that have been posted around there are only a few people's definition of gish that ONLY include ones that can reach 9th lvl spells.

in fact many people call PW and duskblade "gish in a can" classes, meaning that you can go a full 20 in it and be a very viable gish.

carnivore

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2010, 04:55:44 PM »
more is involved than just 9th lvl spells ..... PW dont have enough PP to compete with Psion/Erudite/Ardent/Wilder based Psi-Gish builds.

Duskblades might not be able to reach high level spells on thier own.... but can when combined with a Fast Spell Progression PrC ..... exa:

Duskblade 9/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3

also i would find it hard to compare the strength of a PW 20 to simple Psion 6/ Anarchic Initiate 4/ Slayer 10.... most of the time, 9th lvl Powers dont come into play .... more likely Temporal Acceleration + Schism +Action Economy will be used with Metamorphosis

 :D

veekie

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2010, 04:59:52 PM »
Well, I consider both equally gishy really, they just have different focuses(and power level).

Psywar is integrated manifesting-melee, with most of the powers known directly supporting their melee side. They also got the feats to pick up one of the more feat intensive combat styles without too much effort. Drawback, powers are better than feats.
Wilder is less integrated, with fewer powers that synergise cleanly with melee, but with a much wider range of powers and a bigger magic fuel tank.
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carnivore

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2010, 06:05:01 PM »
Duskblade 20 vs PW 20 ..... my money is on the Duskblade

 :D

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2010, 06:33:34 PM »
Duskblade 20 vs PW 20 ..... my money is on the Duskblade

 :D

Expansion, Hustle and Shism are a big deal, compared to raw damage...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 06:45:19 PM by GawainBS »

veekie

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2010, 06:39:07 PM »
That BAB gap is a bit pesky though.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
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Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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carnivore

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2010, 06:41:43 PM »
Duskblade 20 vs PW 20 ..... my money is on the Duskblade

 :D

Expansion, Hustle and Shism are a big deal, compated to raw damage...

it gets down to Initiative ... same as with Spell casters.... he who goes first usually Wins

 :D

Samb

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Re: Looking for a Psionic Gish.
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2010, 06:56:34 PM »
Anticipitory strike makes initiaive meaningless. If duskblade vs PW was just about who goes first and action economy then PW wins easily.

BAB gap of 5 can be overcome with PW's impressive range of powers that boost attack and/or STR and the action economy to apply said buffs.