Author Topic: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game  (Read 6965 times)

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ksbsnowowl

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Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« on: June 04, 2010, 02:28:27 AM »
So I've been running a real-life gestalt game sporadically for the last several months.  I'm encountering some interesting issues as the DM, that I thought would be informative for any other DM's who are thinking of running gestalt.

The setting is a Norse/Viking world that also draws heavily from the Forgotten Realms country of Rashemen (I'm also running a game on the play by post boards, titled Mythic Sagas, if you are interested in more background).  I have four players, three of which are somewhat experienced, and one who is a total newbie, who we have to hand-hold through every die roll.  Their characters are:

Male Human Druid 2//Fighter 2
Female Half-Elf Cleric 2//Rogue 2
Female Human Paladin 2//Sorcerer 2
Male Half-Elf Druid 2//Ranger 2 (Archer - newbie)

Now, one of the interesting aspects of Gestalt is that the characters have more class abilities at their disposal.  They should have at least some of the following:  More hit points, more feats, more spells, more skill points, better saves, better attack bonuses, more damage potential (via class abilities).  Now, for this increased versatility, the PC's should be able to face off against harder monsters, and the gestalt rules suggest pitting them against creatures of a CR one higher than the party level (or two levels higher if the monster is mostly dangerous due to abilities that allow saving throws).  Mikey likes this, because as a DM I can't wait to use things like trolls.

Perhaps it is the fact that I can see at least the obvious optimization potential in the foes my PC's meet, and have a better grasp of the rules than them, but my PC's are having a hard time holding their own against what should be Gestalt CR (GCR) appropriate encounters.

A couple weeks ago two of my players didn't show, so it was only the Druid//Fighter and the Cleric//Rogue (at the time, first level), along with me occasionally throwing in an arrow shot from the archer, who was "hanging back" (I was winging his shots if the two PC's needed a little help).  I pitted these two PC's against a Taer, which is a CR 1 [GCR 1/2] Medium Giant from Unapproachable East with a climb speed.  It wields a greatclub, and also gets a bite attack (at -2), and can have 2 slams if it drops its club.  It's about on par with a single-classed "elite" Barbarian 1 (14 HP's, Greatclub +3), but I took away it's Hide armor, giving it an AC of 12.

The Taer won initiative, but I had it spend its first round climbing up the edge of the cliff and moving 5-ft toward the PC's, putting a little distance between itself and the ledge, and then it smeared a stench oil on itself (would have sickened the PC's, but they both made their saves).

The Druid//Fighter moves in and misses with a sickle attack.
The Cleric//Rogue moves in and... doesn't flank; she also misses.
The taer misses the druid with his club, but nails him with a bite for 5 damage.
The druid misses, the rogue hits for one damage, still not flanking.
The taer knocks the cleric//rogue down with a bashing strike from his club, putting the rogue at -2 HP's or so.
The Druid CLW's the Rogue, and someone damages the taer for 4 points.
The taer deals some more major hurt to both PC's, and I have the archer wing an arrow in from the back (he was "watching the back trail"), and it rolls a nat 15, hitting for 5 and dropping the taer to 4 HP's
The taer retreats back down his cliff-side.

Now, I realize the PC's did have some crappy rolls, and the Taer had one really good damage roll, dropping the Cleric//Rogue from full health to dying in one hit, but they seemed to have quite a hard time with what should have been a level-appropriate encounter.  It actually was their second encounter of the day, but the first one didn't use up any resources except perhaps an arrow or two.  I'm starting to worry about pitting my PC's against more than a single gestalt-level-appropriate battle in a given game day.

Which brings us to last night.  Three Players show, with me half-assing the Druid-Fighter's sickle attacks, along with a Lesser Vigor or two, and a Produce Flame.  They are second level characters by now.  So, four 2nd level gestalt characters up against an Uthraiki (a Large, ape-like, CR 3 [GCR 2] shapechanger than can assume the form of medium and small humanoids).  They come across a boy crying in the woods beside his parents' corpses.  He says a troll killed his parents and ripped off their arms.  The PC's see the trolls tracks cross paths with the unfortunate travelers, but don't investigate off the roadway.  They decide to take the boy with them, and a few hours later set up camp.  Watches are kept, and when the near-midnight-sun does finally descend below the horizon, the child sneaks up behind the one on watch, but snaps a twig under his feet.

He claws at the Ranger, but misses.
The Ranger screams for everyone to wake up, steps back and hits the boy with an arrow for 2 damage.
The Paladin stands up and detects evil - the boy is evil.
The Cleric fails her listen check while sleeping, so I only give her a standard action; she stands.
The Druid//Fighter stands and then draws his sickle as he closes with the boy.
People miss, but the Paladin smites evil.  After walking her through adding her relevant bonuses, she hits the boy's AC of 10.
The "boy," now pissed off, resumes his natural form as a free action, a large clawed ape-like creature with improved grab, rend, and all-around vision.  His fast healing 2, which only functions at night, heals 2 damage.  He attacks the Paladin, hitting for 10 damage or so.  He also claws the Fighter, connecting for 6 damage, and starts a grapple as a free action (+14 grapple check), again inflicting claw damage.
The Rogue attacks the grappling Uthraiki, and scores a sneak attack for 5 damage.
The Ranger steps back and hits with an arrow for 2.
The Fighter escapes the grapple.

... followed by several rounds of back-and-forth, with the Large Uthraiki getting Attacks of Opportunity, but now always trying (and failing) to improved grab-grapple at -20, so as to keep the rogue from sneak attacking.  It never uses its rend ability, because I feared it would outright kill one of my PC's.

They get it down to 1 HP, and it runs off, leaving a backpack behind.  They decide not to pursue.  Within the PC's find two wands and a letter.  They detect magic and through spellcraft determine one is of the conjuration school.  The letter is read, potions are imbibed.  The Druid//Fighter notices the creature's eyes glinting fire-light back in the forest (I had said straight-out during the fight that some of its cuts were healing....)

I play the creature's tactics a little dumb, because they either kill it now, or it will just run off, fully heal again, and then demolish the party.  They get it down to 0 HP's, and while it tries to maneuver out of their threat ranges, they take it down.

Again, I held back with the gestalt-level-appropriate encounter, the only encounter of the whole day, because my PC's seem... inept?... and I don't want to just slaughter them.  I'm seriously thinking I can only use normal CR-levels with these Gestalt PC's, and even then I fear I'll kill them.  I honestly think I could have wiped the floor with them with that Uthraiki, even if they had been level 3 gestalt characters....
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 02:30:16 AM by ksbsnowowl »
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veekie

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2010, 03:57:53 AM »
Seems par for the course for low level characters, personally, levels 1-3 are like that due to simply how few hits they can take and live, so a little bad luck goes a really long way. Add to that the issue that gestalt raises the bottom and average stat values, but not the top and you can see what's going to happen.

I notice that they had hardly expended any offensive resources as well, of so many casters present, they opted to go up close and start swinging, so they aren't making use of their gestalt potential. Even just spamming a Summon Nature's Ally I would have bought them some much needed respite, much less the various buffs/debuffs they could have raised.
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2010, 10:17:36 AM »
Yes, the only offensive casting I've seen are some magic missiles from the Sorcerer.  Most everything else has been spent on curative magic, or mage armor.  Admittedly, their experience thus far likely won't lead them to change that.  After this next encounter I have planned, I'll back things down to CR = level, sadly.

But again, you're right that they aren't using their resources well.  The "best" player I've got is the Druid//Fighter, and so far he's sunk his feats into Track and unarmed strike (and WF: Unarmed Strike).

I'll have to plan an encounter with some Cleric//Rogues of Hel or Loki in the not-too-distant future, so I can show the Cleric//Rogue the benefits of flanking with a mere Inflict Minor Wounds.
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Hallack

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2010, 12:03:45 PM »
Yeah I have to agree.  Sounds like the biggest problem is just the normal low level squishiness which is only very slightly mitigated by gestalt.

The party certainly does not seem to be making the most Min/Maxed choices but seems you as the DM are handling that very nicely in how you are adapting your current and future encounters. 

As long as everyone is having fun and not making horribly stupid choices in actions and PC development I'd just go with it and adjust as needed. 

The DM can always kick the players asses if he wants but that isn't what you're after.  So yeah, keep doing what your doing and perhaps even educate them a little bit as they are moving along like you mentioned with an opposing cleric/rogue that flanks.

Oh, and please keep updating this as myself and a friend are looking to run a gestalt game next (probably many months away) and would be keen to follow and discuss issues you run into regarding gestalt.


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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2010, 12:37:21 PM »
I do plan to keep updating this, in part for my own tracking of the story.  The play by post that I run has spoiled me with the ability to reread what has happened before, so somewhat recreating that will be a nice tool for me.

Another issue that I just thought of - I have two druids, and for their animal companions they both picked... hawks.  One of them has already died, because it provoked an attack of opportunity while attacking a "forest troll" (a Feral Tasloi) that had been chucking some javelins at the PC's.  Hopefully once the Druid//Ranger gets his Ranger AnComp, he'll get his bird fix with the weaker ranger class feature, and will choose a real animal companion on his druid side.

Just to gloss over some of their earlier encounters, they did pretty well against a Half-Troll Mongrel Folk.  It was a very tough fight that bruised them heavily, but they pulled it off.

They also did really well in two separate encounters with some Redcaps.  They had a cold-iron dagger, which helped a lot.  The two redcaps were inhabiting two levels of a run-down, decrepit tower in the forest, so they were two individual fights.  Modest injuries, but nothing too life-threatening.

I think soon I'll have to demonstrate the power of enlarge person.  Hopefully if they see it used against them, they will be able to extrapolate the advantage it would have for them when fighting trolls.

Lastly, I think I will soon use a small pack of 3 Spirit Wolves (Frostburn).  They manifest much like a ghost.  I can demonstrate some tactics (flanking, mostly, though they did start to do that this last session), and the advantageous thing is that all the spirit animal's damage against corporeal opponents is nonlethal.  That way I can demonstrate good tactics, likely tearing them up in the process, but the damage will not kill them.
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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 12:18:16 AM »
Hawks!  They couldn't corroborate on that?  One hawk is fine for scouting, but something with 4 legs is needed!  I also don't think the Ranger and Druid AC combine since they are the same feature by the same name.
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2010, 02:37:48 AM »
Hawks!  They couldn't corroborate on that?  One hawk is fine for scouting, but something with 4 legs is needed!  I also don't think the Ranger and Druid AC combine since they are the same feature by the same name.
Indeed, you are correct.  I hadn't thought of that fact before.  I'll be sure to steer him toward an alternate class feature at some point (or maybe I'll give him the Wild Cohort feat in its place).

Hallack, I'd never looked at your Art and Life of Beguiling thread before, and just now skimmed through parts of the first page.  The way your DM has introduced the Minion concept to 3.5 is very intriguing to me, and I think I may also do something similar.  How has it worked out for your group?  Does it effectively lower the CR of a creature by 1, or some other value, or has it merely been used as a tool to put you up against more foes?  Can you expound on how your DM has utilized it?

Another interesting thing I found over at the Wizards boards was in the Monster Lore Compendium.  They had a Ravenloft-specific line for all the trolls that they turn into a normal boulder if exposed to sunlight, but turn back into trolls at night.  Very much something that fits in with a viking-styled game.  I know this is more Bestiary-related, but I thought I'd mention it.  I wouldn't have all trolls be this way, but it would be interesting every once in a while to encounter varieties that did this.

No new game-play on this campaign yet.  Will have a BIG game update next week (assuming all my players show up...)
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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 02:01:35 PM »
Seems like you are giving them very few hints and a lot of freedom to make bad decisions. Well, if all a player wants to do is roleplay, and doesn't care about mechanics, then gestalt won't help at all. They need bonus HP.

What I did in a recent group is give EVERYONE (including monsters) their con SCORE as a bonus to HP at level 1, and then Con bonus per level, too. That made sure everyone was quite beefy. It prolongs fights a lot, though, especially with totally unoptimised PCs, who can't do shit for damage.

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 03:29:51 PM »
Seems like you are giving them very few hints and a lot of freedom to make bad decisions. Well, if all a player wants to do is roleplay, and doesn't care about mechanics, then gestalt won't help at all. They need bonus HP.

What I did in a recent group is give EVERYONE (including monsters) their con SCORE as a bonus to HP at level 1, and then Con bonus per level, too. That made sure everyone was quite beefy. It prolongs fights a lot, though, especially with totally unoptimised PCs, who can't do shit for damage.
I don't like just giving hoards of bonus HP's "just because."  They already have "bonus" HP's because they are gestalt, and when we roll HP's, they roll a die and I roll a die, and they get the better of the two.

And no offense, I hate DM's who are heavy-handed in dictating what you should do with your character.  I've talked about what a lot of typical characters in the setting might look like (Barb//Rog, Barb//Scout, Barb//Druid, Druid//Wiz, the Berserker Lodge feats, etc.), and thus given insight into ways to build characters, but I'm not going to dictate that the Druid should pick more effective feats than Unarmed Strike.  They know fey, trolls, and other humans will be the bulk of what they fight.
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veekie

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2010, 03:46:01 PM »
For this lot, personally all they need to do is realize what they have in their hands, the power of their spells. Don't be afraid to use up resources, particularly when they come back fairly easily.

One possible way of nudging is to hurl some casting foes at them, and above all use the very same spells they have prepared against them, to great effect. If that doesn't work I don't know what will.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2010, 06:53:19 AM »
Well, as long as they are having fun it's fine. It seems weird that they don't actually ask for advice, though.

Also, if the guy wants unarmed strike, you might have simply suggested a dip into Monk at level 2 or something, and suddenly you're moving from crap to really viable.

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2010, 10:24:52 AM »
Well, as long as they are having fun it's fine. It seems weird that they don't actually ask for advice, though.

Also, if the guy wants unarmed strike, you might have simply suggested a dip into Monk at level 2 or something, and suddenly you're moving from crap to really viable.
Viking setting.  No monks.

But, there is the superior unarmed strike feat, Fist of the Forest prc, and I could likely be swayed into allowing Shou Disciple.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2010, 10:27:26 AM »
Well, as long as they are having fun it's fine. It seems weird that they don't actually ask for advice, though.

Also, if the guy wants unarmed strike, you might have simply suggested a dip into Monk at level 2 or something, and suddenly you're moving from crap to really viable.
Viking setting.  No monks.

But, there is the superior unarmed strike feat, Fist of the Forest prc, and I could likely be swayed into allowing Shou Disciple.
Kind of a lot of flavour/mechanics mixing. Even the vikings must have had fistfighters. well, it's your game, obviously.

Hallack

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2010, 11:37:30 AM »
Hallack, I'd never looked at your Art and Life of Beguiling thread before, and just now skimmed through parts of the first page.  The way your DM has introduced the Minion concept to 3.5 is very intriguing to me, and I think I may also do something similar.  How has it worked out for your group?  Does it effectively lower the CR of a creature by 1, or some other value, or has it merely been used as a tool to put you up against more foes?  Can you expound on how your DM has utilized it?

Actually, not sure I can give a lot of insight sadly.  Mostly this is due to the fact that we have spent most of our time AVOIDING the fights as it has not been most of our parties shtick.  I like the Minion concept as my DM has applied it but we never know when we are facing minions or other so we tend to assume the worst in our foes and react accordingly (ie avoid).

As I recall the DM just cuts the XP in half for the minions and gives 1.5 for the elites. 

Yes, the DM largely uses it as a tool to put us up against more foes I think.  Sometimes, like the diary I need to add currently we were pretty sure that 16 or so of the foes were minions but in truth we are paranoid of our DMs competitive streak and are very aware of the smack downs he enjoys laying on us. (BK, you know it's true :P)

Depending on how you want to use the minions I'd suggest having some sort of mechanism for the party to recognize them otherwise the party will not be able to react accordingly.  This is especially true if minions were used in in a manner without pattern metagamewise.  That is, no real rhyme or reason so players are never ever able to tell what they face. 

In the face of that uncertainty a battle you planned being a nice heroic victory can turn to nothing as cautious players assume the worst and avoid. 

Hope that makes sense.

Cheers.
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2010, 01:02:28 PM »
Kind of a lot of flavour/mechanics mixing. Even the vikings must have had fistfighters. well, it's your game, obviously.
Oh, sure.  But they represent it through the fist-fighting feats and PrC's I mentioned.  No martial arts with stunning fist ki-strikes, and 20th level characters randomly becoming outsiders.
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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2010, 07:13:06 PM »
I've found the minion concept to work fairly well from my perspective as the DM for Hallack's Diary of a Beguiler thread.  You can easily scale up or down an encounter, even after introducing creatures by changing whether they are minions, normals or elite.... although I actually rarely do this, but you could if you need to adjust the difficulty of an encounter but don't want to arbitrarily change the number of opponents.

I change the gear between minions, normals and elites and point out the gear differences to the party... i.e. shabby gear for minions, better gear indicates normals, and shiny uber-gear for elites.  I don't specifically tell them these X foes are minions, though... so maybe that's what he's talking about.

I think for direct damage dealing PCs it would work fantastically... the Minions are still threats that can't be ignored, but allow the PCs to triumph over them heroicly  ...but it is just 'ok' for Hallack because his Beguiler is a scaredy cat... (You know you are Hallack!   :P) and tries to avoid all combat.

For PCs 4+ level facing creatures CR 4+ each Minion is effectively -2 CR, and each Elite is +1 CR...
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2010, 03:51:50 AM »
Thank you Black Knight, that's just the info I was wanting.  So, I used the minion concept on one of a pair of Ice Trolls this evening, and it helped my PC's live.

My PC's did a better job tonight, but still didn't do any thinking outside of the box with regards to their spells this evening.  I did wend a few mentions of how spells might be used into a few rules explanations (specifically mentioning a touch attack with Inflict Minor Wounds paired with sneak attack), but didn't state it straight out as suggestions to any of the PC's.

So, the PC's have been tracking a rogue Berserker since the first session.  They are currently second level, and he is (unbeknownst to them) a 7th level gestalt NPC (Barb/Ftr/Frenzied Berserker//Rog).  It is supposed to be a climax battle that will push them and seriously threaten their lives, but not kill them.  It's supposed to accomplish this because it culminates in a 3-way battle: the PC's vs Grimolf vs two Ice Trolls.

The PC's start the day at full health, and full spells.  The two druids track Grimolf without problem, and by late afternoon they reach a series of switchbacks in the road that lead down to a fishing village on a fjord.  After a half-hour of following the switchbacks they turn a corner and see their target rounding the other end of the switchback ahead of them.  The PC's are on ponies, and plan to have the Druid//Ftr and the Clr//Rog ride past Grimolf, acting as travelers in a hurry, and then have the two "ranged" characters come up from behind.  Not a bad plan, but for the "chance" encounter they stumble upon.

So the two pc's hurry their mounts and round the next curve.  They see Grimolf, but his attention is on something to the other side of a small rise in the road.  They begin approaching, Grimolf doesn't notice them, and he pulls out a wand and UMD's himself invisible.  The two PC's book it to the small rise and crest it to find an unexpected site below them.  They do not see Grimolf, but they see two Ice Trolls who have a woman bound and thrown over one's shoulder.  The troll's notice their careless entry to the scene, and after initiative is rolled, one of them drops the woman and begins advancing toward the two PC's.

The Cleric//Rogue advances toward the troll and pulls out her spear.
Grimolf then fires a flaming arrow invisibly, getting a successful sneak attack, and dealing 9 points of fire damage too (they are vulnerable to fire).
The Druid casts entangle, holding both trolls (and the bound woman) in place.  He yells for the Druid//Ranger and Paladin//Sorcerer to come.

The trolls still can't get out.
The Crl//Rog does nothing, blocked by the entangle.
Grimolf shoots the minion troll with another flaming arrow, critting it and dealing 3 fire damage. It falls unconscious.
The Druid does something ineffectual.
The troll chieftain breaks free from the entangle, picks up the woman, and moves out the back end of the entangle, placing it between itself and the PC's, with it blocking the whole road in a steep, wooded area.

The troll minion regenerates, but is still unconscious.
Clr//Rog and Grimolf hold action, waiting for the Druid to dismiss the entangle.
The Druid stalls and verbally confronts Grimolf.  When asked by Grimolf if he's going to do something (the troll is getting away with a captive woman), he says he might (indicating he's waiting for Grimolf to surrender, essentially).
Grimolf trudges off through the forested slope, skirting the entangle.
The Clr//Rog dismounts and follows Grimolf.
The Archer arrives on scene and dismounts.
The Chief troll continues to retreat with the bound woman.

The Sorcerer arrives (and might have dismounted, I forget)
The troll minion regenerates to nonlethal damage equal to its HP's, and stands up.
The Druid casts Babau Slime, dismisses the entangle, and tries to attack the troll minion  (a discussion ensues about how babau slime does not empower your attacks with acid.  Creatures only take damage when they attack you or you two are grappling - the player now thinks the spell sucks.) Okay, he tries to grapple the troll instead, and fails.
Grimolf and the Clr//Rog trudge back up the hill, onto the road.
Archer hits the troll minion for 3, and it drops unconscious again.
Seeing the path for foes is open, the chief troll drops the woman, advances toward the group, and readies an attack.

Pal//Sor moves and does nothing else.
Troll minion regenerates to [effectively] 1 hp, claws at the sorcerer, and seeing no one threatening it with a weapon, stands up, provoking an AoO from the Unarmed Fighting Druid.  That hits, knocking the troll unconscious again.
The druid misses the troll with an unarmed strike.
Grimolf rages and charges the troll chief.  The troll chief gets his readied attack, which misses, and his AoO for reach, which hits.  This sends Grimolf into a Frenzy.  Grimolf trips on his charge, ripping the troll's feet out from underneath him, but misses on the follow-up attack.
Crl//Rog remounts her pony.
Archer moves but doesn't do much.
I forget what the troll chief did, but it resulted in nothing.

The Pal//Sor casts Mage Armor.
Troll minion regenerates but stays unconscious.
The Druid/Fighter thinks that cold iron might hurt the troll more, so pulls that out an wants to coup de grace, but must just attack it (can't full-round action after drawing a weapon....), dealing damage and keeping it down.
In his blood-rage Grimolf full-attacks the Troll Chief at +16/+16/+11, connecting every time and dealing a total of 40 [nonlethal] damage.
Clr//Rog does something ineffectual.
Archer tries to fire at the prone troll from 30 feet away, while his friends are giving it cover, and misses.
The troll chief attacks from prone, dealing 5 damage.

Pal//Sor doesn't do anything effective.
The Troll minion regenerates, still unconscious.
The Druid performs a coup de grace with a cold iron dagger, dealing 7 damage.
Grimolf strikes the troll chief again, knocking it unconscious, and he turns and advances toward the party, the sorcerer being the closest.
Clr//Rog interposes herself, but doesn't hit with an attack.
Archer hits Grimolf with two rapid shots, one a critical, dealing 11 damage total.
Troll chief regenerates, still unconscious.

Sorcerer hits Grimolf with a magic missile for 4.
Troll minion regenerates, still unconscious.
Druid does another coup de grace after seeing the troll's neck knitting its gash back together.  The druid succeeds on a spot check to notice that the burned arrow wound hasn't healed yet.
Grimolf advances and trips the Cleric's pony, and kills it with the follow-up blow.  The clr//rog succeeds on a high tumble check to dismount and land on her feet.
The Cleric heals someone.
The archer crits Grimolf again.
The Troll Chief regenerates to consciousness and stands up.

Sorcerer does nothing.
Troll minion regenerates.
Druid casts Lesser Vigor on himself.
Grimolf trips the cleric and hits with the followup attack, knocking her to 2 HP's. The cleric bluffs that she's out cold.  Grimolf advances toward the archer, provoking an attack from the prone Cleric//Rogue.  She tries to trip him with her spear, but fails the touch attack - Grimolf doesn't notice in the midst of his frenzy.  He also provokes from the Druid, who he ignored because he was atop the troll, trying to cut its head off.  The Druid deals 3 damage with the dagger.
I forget what the cleric did.
Archer steps back and hits twice for 5 total damage.
Troll chief charges Grimolf, dealing 12 damage.

Sorcerer hits Grimolf with a magic missile dealing 3 damage.
Troll minion regenerates, but remains unconscious.
Druid coup de graces the troll again, dealing 8 damage.
Grimolf 5-foot-steps and hits the Troll chief dealing 18 damage.  Because he can't move to engage anyone new, he strikes the troll chief two more times, dealing 31 points of damage.
I forget what the cleric did.
The archer hits Grimolf for 2 damage (he will now be in negative HP's once his rage ends).
The troll chief is now out of the fight - he had 92 nonlethal damage, and the PC's set him on fire before he ever regains consciousness.

The Sorcerer hits Grimolf with a magic missle for 4 damage.
Troll minion regenerates, but remains unconscious.
The Druid does something.
Grimolf 5-foot-steps to threaten several people, and hits both the Druid and the Cleric, knocking both unconscious.
The cleric doesn't stabilize.
The Archer doesn't have any effect.

The sorcerer is out of magic missiles, and doesn't have a ranged weapon, so does nothing.
The troll minion regenerates, but remains unconscious.
The druid heals 1 HP thanks to Lesser Vigor, but remains unconscious.
Grimolf draws a javelin and hurls it at the sorcerer, striking for 13 damage.  His Rage and Frenzy end, and he succumbs to the nonlethal damage, falling unconscious, stable at -6 hp.
The cleric doesn't stabilize, now at -6.
The archer//Druid gives the druid a goodberry, healing 1 hp.

The Pal//Sorc lays hands on herself.
The troll minion regenerates, still unconscious.
The druid heals 1 hp, bringing him to 0 HP.
The cleric doesn't stabilize, now -7.
The archer gives the Cleric a Lesser Vigor, stabilizing her and bringing her to -6.

The Paladin pulls out and lights a torch.
The troll regenerates to consciousness, finding a semi-conscious druid laying on his chest.  He tries to grapple.  The druid takes his AoO, damaging the troll for 5, but falling unconscious himself.
The Druid heals to 0, rolls off the troll, and trickles a potion of cure light wounds down the cleric's throat.
The cleric is now conscious, and sits up.
I forget what the archer did.

The Paladin double-moves to the troll chief with her lit torch.
The troll regenerates to consciousness, and stands up, provoking an AoO, but the only melee characters are prone, and miss.  The troll 5-foot steps away.
The Druid provokes an AoO to throw his cold iron dagger, but both he and the troll miss.
The cleric//rogue throws a dagger, missing.
The Archer moves and hits for 1 damage.

The paladin continues her barbeque.
The troll starts retreating.
The druid gets a few torches out.
The rogue does the same.
the archer plugs the troll for 4 damage, but they do not pursue as it retreats.

The PC's roast the troll chief, and make cracks about having a woman tied up and at their mercy...  :rollseyes
 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 11:15:10 AM by ksbsnowowl »
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KSB Snow Owl's Archer Build thread

veekie

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2010, 04:39:04 AM »
Looks like they've improved quite a bit.
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

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[spoiler]
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2010, 11:44:58 AM »
Looks like they've improved quite a bit.
Yes.  Also, although they used the lesser vigors as healing, they did so with several rounds of combat left.  I'm hoping that may spark the idea in their heads that lesser vigor can be used as a buff spell.  Pop it off in the first round while you are maneuvering into position, but can't yet get to your target, that sort of thing.
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KSB Snow Owl's Archer Build thread

Torvon

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Re: Diary of a RL Gestalt Game
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2010, 12:42:45 PM »
Ok.

When I put a level 1 character of someone who has never played D&D against a level 1 character of someone who is an optimizer with 20 years of experience, it'll look pretty bad for the "newbie".

If you do that with level 20 characters though, the "newbie" will be dead instantly.

I think the same applies to the level of playstyle in a group. If you'd play a "normal" campaign, and see it as "players" vs. "DM", you can quite beat the crap out of your players if you outplay them.
In a Gestalt campaign though, it can be much worse. Yes, the power level rises for both sides, but you can abuse it much more than the players.

And exactly that seems to be the problem. So, the problem isn't the characters I think, it's the players. E.g. not using enlarge person, etc.
If you outplay them, your side (the monsters) should have some kind of handicap, until the players play on "your level". So decreasing the CR isn't the worst idea -- or increasing the players ability to fight.

ta-ta
T.

PS.: thank you very much for the detailed descriptions, makes for an interesting reading.
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