Author Topic: Is the Fighter's very existance in D&D3.X a flaw in the game's design?  (Read 13759 times)

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RobbyPants

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Thats why I said yards.  I knew feet wouldn't be that big of a deal at that point. :p

Although, practically speaking, I'm not sure how much of this really matters.  If the group doesn't have casters in it, most DMs will avoid challenges that require a caster, and if the group does have casters, then they tend to look at those challenges as part of the group aspect of the game.  So I guess from a practical sense, the fighter class has survived as long as it has because DMs either consciously or unconsciously cater the game to the group.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Its still possible to hit a DC 300 skill check though, Jumplomancer has a +370 or so bonus doesn't he?

at this point however you have a character that can only jump chasms and do nothing else.

EjoThims

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at this point however you have a character that can only jump chasms and do nothing else.

Which, I think, is the point Ians is missing.

Sure, a Fighter has the resources to do a lot of different things (provided he also has the gear), but each individual Fighter only has the resources to effectively do one (or two) things, and even then only if built properly and with the gear to back it up.

And doubling the feats doesn't help, you just get well built Fighters that are way more powerful than anyone else at their specific area, but still useless at the rest.

But honestly, my biggest problem with Fighters isn't the lack of power, it's their boring play-style. Same with Barbarian. Swhy my fixes for those two focused more on giving them options to provide variance in their chosen actions and allow strategic thinking instead of trying to make them competitive with casters.

Sinfire Titan

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A melee fighter can deal with a couple the melee monsters, and a ranged fighter can deal with the manticores and other flying monsters, so if the fighter had twice the number of feats he should be able to be a threat to both.


It isn't just the feats though, its the Equipment, MAD, and Character Levels. Not every Fighter is going to be able to afford a pair of +10 weapons, and not every Fighter is going to have the money for Tomes to boost his Str and Dex. MAD heavily restricts what roles a melee combatant can do. If there were a feat that let him use Str on attack rolls with Bows, he'd be a lot better off but he'd still be lacking in the class features department.

In other words, resource management. He doesn't have the levels required to take dips into the vital archery PrCs and dip into his required melee PrCs. He doesn't have the ability scores to qualify for feats when he needs them. He doesn't have the cash needed to boost his stats or bolster his combat options when he needs them.

Edit: And he simply does not have the ability to deal with multiple threats (very few noncasters can deal with both Flying melee enemies and nonflying ranged enemies).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Amechra

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at this point however you have a character that can only jump chasms and do nothing else.

Which, I think, is the point Ians is missing.

Sure, a Fighter has the resources to do a lot of different things (provided he also has the gear), but each individual Fighter only has the resources to effectively do one (or two) things, and even then only if built properly and with the gear to back it up.

And doubling the feats doesn't help, you just get well built Fighters that are way more powerful than anyone else at their specific area, but still useless at the rest.

But honestly, my biggest problem with Fighters isn't the lack of power, it's their boring play-style. Same with Barbarian. Swhy my fixes for those two focused more on giving them options to provide variance in their chosen actions and allow strategic thinking instead of trying to make them competitive with casters.

Ooh ooh, solution! (Warning, probably badly thought out.) A fighter gets a class ability that allows him to act like he has all the feats of every other fighter within a certain radius. A different version could grant a fighter rudimentary ability in some of the non-magical class abilities, like Rage and Sneak Attack (Some sort of apprenticeship system?).
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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Sinfire Titan

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Ooh ooh, solution! (Warning, probably badly thought out.) A fighter gets a class ability that allows him to act like he has all the feats of every other fighter within a certain radius. A different version could grant a fighter rudimentary ability in some of the non-magical class abilities, like Rage and Sneak Attack (Some sort of apprenticeship system?).

Sounds too much like a Sliver deck. Veto.

Again, the problem isn't the number of feats, it's the number of useful feats. Amongst other problems.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Littha

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I <3 Slivers...

Sinfire Titan

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I <3 Slivers...

I'm trying to think up something witty and humorous without coming across as a dick, because I did bring up Magic, but I think as Spy is sappin my brain.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

veekie

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I <3 Slivers...
They're awesome, but don't quite fit the archetype of the Fighter. Maybe for a sort of special Legion PrC?

And I have to agree with Sinfire here, how many feats you have still doesn't do much to expand your breadth of abilities, not without tapping into the 'unlock variant magic system' type of feats, which of course, means they ARE emulating supernatural stuff and might as well be a Warblade/PsyWar/Totemist/etc to do it right. And even then you're investing a disproportionate amount of resources to get what others get by default.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Amechra

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You know, I give up.

Now I want to build the Sliver as a monster...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Sinfire Titan

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Now I want to build the Sliver as a monster...

Have fun.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

MasterVega

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Now I want to build the Sliver as a monster...
Good luck pinning a CR on that. It'd probably be the only monster ever whose CR actually increases depending on how many others of its kind are nearby. @_@

Back on topic:

Honestly the only ways I can think of to fix the fighter are the following:
Replace him with the Warblade. *puts on flame-retardant vest*
Abandon the Fighter as a single class, and instead make a whole set of classes based on the roles he's designed to cover.
Pioneer a new and amazing miracle mechanic that gives the fighter personalty and adaptability. (Good luck with that.)

I'm currently working on an attempt at option 2... Hopefully, now that I've announced it, I'm not doomed to forget and never post it. >_>
I might be insane, but at least I\'m not deluded...

My Art! :D

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The Good, the Bad, and the Undead as Cedric McDouglan, ex-soldier shadow hunter.

RobbyPants

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Ooh ooh, solution! (Warning, probably badly thought out.) A fighter gets a class ability that allows him to act like he has all the feats of every other fighter within a certain radius. A different version could grant a fighter rudimentary ability in some of the non-magical class abilities, like Rage and Sneak Attack (Some sort of apprenticeship system?).
Amechra, have you heard of the Tome series?  The basic concept is that they decided to balance the game against casters rather than try to tone down casters and rewrite several hundred spells.  It was still a pretty big undertaking.

Anyway, the redid the fighter (scroll down about a page) among other things.  A lot of this fighter's strength comes from the class itself, but they also introduced two new mechanics to further boost him: the Edge and [Combat] feats*.  You have the Edge on an attack if your BAB is higher than your opponent's, which gives you certain advantages (like doing a trip without provoking an AoO).  Combat feats help reduce the feat load in that they don't have any prereqs, and they scale with BAB.  Each feat grants a separate ability at BAB 0, 1, 6, 11, and 16.  One of the fighter's abilities is to pretend he has one of these feats that he doesn't several rounds a day, which makes him very versatile.

I'm only pointing you toward this to give you ideas.  It's actually considered powerful enough that people do consider it on par with the wizard in many regards, and they consider it one of the most powerful Tome classes.



* Look for the Edge under "Base Attack Bonus and Combat Maneuvers", and look for [Combat] feats under "The New Combat Ready Feats"
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Well, even the Tome fighter is still limited in the same core regard. Hes numerically powerful, but so is the regular fighter when well built, and still lacks the breadth of ability to compete on usefulness.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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True.  It still lacks most plot-altering stuff, but it does do a good job of making saves and playing the action economy game.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Amechra

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You mean Tome of Battle? Yeah, I recently got it, so I'll check that over.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

lans

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A melee fighter can deal with a couple the melee monsters, and a ranged fighter can deal with the manticores and other flying monsters, so if the fighter had twice the number of feats he should be able to be a threat to both.


It isn't just the feats though, its the Equipment, MAD, and Character Levels. Not every Fighter is going to be able to afford a pair of +10 weapons, and not every Fighter is going to have the money for Tomes to boost his Str and Dex. MAD heavily restricts what roles a melee combatant can do. If there were a feat that let him use Str on attack rolls with Bows, he'd be a lot better off but he'd still be lacking in the class features department.


In other words, resource management. He doesn't have the levels required to take dips into the vital archery PrCs and dip into his required melee PrCs. He doesn't have the ability scores to qualify for feats when he needs them. He doesn't have the cash needed to boost his stats or bolster his combat options when he needs them.

Edit: And he simply does not have the ability to deal with multiple threats (very few noncasters can deal with both Flying melee enemies and nonflying ranged enemies).
Lets take my super fighter
Lets go at 20th level for simplicities sake, because I haven't broken down how my fighter gets his feats.  I won't say it can handle every thing, but it can handle a lot.
[Spoiler]
25 point buy, With 28 points put one in Intelligence, Wisdom, Con, 32  put 3 points into strength and one into dex.
Human
Str 13 Up at 4,16,20
Dex 13
Con 13 Up at 12 and 8
Int 13
Wis 13
Chr 8
Base Feats 1 Education, 3 Knowledge Devotion, 6 Boomerang Daze, 9 Fiendish/Fey Legacy, 12 Open Chakra:Shoulders

Fighter Feats- Not in any order 1 Blink Shirt, 4 Bind Vestige chain, 5 Phase Cloak, 6 Fiendish/Fey Heritage, 7 Animal Devotion, This should take care of utility //8 Combat Reflexes, 9 Blind Fight, 13 Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, Combat Stability, Combat Awareness, 14 Robilars Gambit, 15 Brutal Throw, 16 Power Attack, 17 Power Throw, 18 EWP:Boomerang, 23 Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Greater Rapid Shot, 24 Improved Initiative, 25 Greater Toughness, 28 Resolute, Armor of God, Overwhelming Attack, 30 IHS&WRT, 34 more Animal Devotions.
5 bonus feats remaining, 2 level based feats.(Mageslayer line considered, Shape Soulmeld :Theft Gloves and Least Open Chakra:Hands with a higher point buy, Ancesteral Relic, and Craft Arms and Armor[Fey/Fiendish Legacy gives a caster level] if he has to make his own equipment, maybe Tallness or long arms)
Fighter Abilties- I gave the Fighter the Weapon Focus line with all weapons
Skill Trick: The knowledge one
760K Gold
Stat Boosters Str/Dex/Wis/Con 144k
Vest 25k
+1 Aptitude Splitting Force (Is this +2 or 3?) Bow 98k or 128k
+1 Aptitude Guisarme 8k
+5 Armor/ring/Amulet 125k
Boots of Speedx2 24k
306k remaining

So I got Flight, Melee, Anti-battlefield controlness, ranged combat effectiveness, can get across a canyon, Detect HP totals, Scout, see invisibility, or breath water, Force a DC 76+4xPA save vs Daze on a full attack, a 43+2xPA on a normal  melee attack, saves are decent, can identify monsters, etheralness,

This is what I think its missing outside of magical equipment Spot/Listen/Search/Hide/Move Silently, Ability to deal with Swarms, healing, traps and it is insufficient at dealing with incorporeals.
Other than Swarms those are opportunity costs, ie another Super Fighter could do those things.

Melee- 2d4+28(15 strength, 6 spec-line, 5 knowledge devotion+2 weapon)x2 or 6
OR 4d4+56 x2

Attack bonus 42 (20 base+ 10 strength+1 weapon+4 spec-line+2 weapon+5 knowledge+1 haste)
+43/43/43/43/=43/+28, Or =53/+47

Saves F 22 R 21 W 21 or 31  Pretty good, About 80% chance of passing most things.
Skills: The 6 that pertain to knowledge devotion
[/Spoiler]
Any way, the point is that feats are capable class features.
ians Wrong
lans Right
Lans Also Right
Ians Wrong
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 01:36:23 AM by lans »
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EjoThims

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Any way, the point is that feats are capable class features.

 :lmao

"If we give the Fighter 35 completely open ended bonus feats (granting him a total of 6 times what anyone else gets and giving out an average of over 2 per level) then he can take all the class feature emulating feats and actually be effective."

While possibly true, if built right, that is still an incredibly poorly designed class and it still suffers the same problems, especially since the majority of those class feature emulating feats are the alternate magic systems when a fighter 'shouldn't be magical.'

veekie

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Maybe if we turned things like the Legendary Dreadnaught into some class options for level 10+ fighter types...
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

lans

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Any way, the point is that feats are capable class features.

 :lmao

"If we give the Fighter 35 completely open ended bonus feats (granting him a total of 6 times what anyone else gets and giving out an average of over 2 per level) then he can take all the class feature emulating feats and actually be effective."

While possibly true, if built right, that is still an incredibly poorly designed class and it still suffers the same problems, especially since the majority of those class feature emulating feats are the alternate magic systems when a fighter 'shouldn't be magical.'
If you paid attention they were either fighter feats or a feat a 1st level commoner could take, for the bonus feats at least. So the fighter class didn't give anything a normal person couldn't do outside of thins on the normal bonus fighter feat list.
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar