Author Topic: Lowering Metamagic  (Read 1815 times)

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Amechra

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Lowering Metamagic
« on: May 31, 2010, 02:15:39 AM »
I got this idea because I thought I saw a reduce spell metamagic years ago.

Reverse Metamagic
Prerequisites: 3 metamagic feats
Benefit: A spellcaster with this feat may reverse their metamagic feats. These reverse metamagics have the opposite effect of the normal metamagic they came from; for example, a wizard 6 casting a Unpowered (Reverse Empowered) Fireball would do 6d6-21 damage. In addition, these new reverse metamagics cause the spell to take up a number of slots lower than the original equal to the number of slots higher the original metamagic used, so an Empowered Fireball is 4th level, and an Unpowered Fireball is 2nd level.

So, thoughts?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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veekie

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2010, 01:57:04 AM »
Well the obvious one would be to use it to lower spell slot costs for spells that deal damage as a secondary effect.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2010, 11:33:21 AM »
Well the obvious one would be to use it to lower spell slot costs for spells that deal damage as a secondary effect.
Un-empowered finger of death as a 5th-level spell? Not to mention un-silent and un-still.

It gets ridiculous with Reverse Heighten Spell allowing you to cast 9th-level spells as cantrips. A human cleric with domains which grant metamagic feats could do this at lv1.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 11:39:03 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2010, 11:32:50 PM »
So... A little overpowered?

Maybe I should limit the amount you can apply...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Solo

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2010, 11:34:34 PM »
The Mailman would love it.


"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

veekie

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2010, 02:37:44 AM »
So... A little overpowered?

Maybe I should limit the amount you can apply...
Issue is of course, something for nothing, and that most metamagic effects are severely overcosted and only really useful in certain rare scenarios.
The cost is situational, whereas the benefit is static.

I could see a case for a reverse Quicken that makes you require twice the normal number of actions to cast a spell in exchange for a slot reduction, which could see some use for abuse in long duration buffing, but otherwise, theres a reason why so many metamagic tricks involve getting the slot modifier to a negative number.

Now, a package deal now, is much saner, a metamagic to decrease an AoE spell's area threefold(with a condition that the minimum spell dimension is 15ft) in exchange for maximizing all damage dice for +0 is not so abusable.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Amechra

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2010, 03:32:18 AM »
Sounds good. I would make a package or two, but right now I'm starting to work on a big project, do I need some shuteye.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Prime32

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2010, 01:12:11 PM »
I think you need to state in the feat description that you can't reverse Heighten, and possibly Silent and Still.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2010, 01:16:29 PM »
^^^
How about an Unempowered, Minimized, Twinned Icelance?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Littha

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2010, 01:46:12 PM »
what happens to an unextended (or otherwise unmetamagiced) level 0 spell?

Amechra

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2010, 05:36:20 PM »
Quick comment on the 0 level unmetamagic: you can't do it.

Actually, you could have unsilent, unstill, and material spells, each one adding a new component to the spell, as long as the spell does not have them in the first place. For example, an unstill material Dimension door, would be 2 levels lower and would require a somatic and material component.

I have no problem with removing reversed Heighten.

Might want to disallow fell drain, too...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

snakeman830

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 05:39:47 PM »
Definitely remove Un-Fell Drain.  That would shatter the game.

And a quick comment: Eschew Materials is not a Metamagic feat, so there shouldn't be a "add material component" one either.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Amechra

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Re: Lowering Metamagic
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2010, 06:11:36 PM »
I added Material Spell just to finish of the whole components "set", if you will.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing