Author Topic: Does this mix hurt e6?  (Read 3248 times)

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Amechra

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Does this mix hurt e6?
« on: May 30, 2010, 05:55:31 PM »
I'm thinking Precocious Apprentice+A reserve Feat that only needs a second level spell would be a really overpowered character, at least for 1st levels. Of course, I'm awful at character building, so would this even be valid?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 06:57:57 PM »
It's decent at first level, but a warlock can do it better in an E6 setting.
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Amechra

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2010, 07:47:03 PM »
It's decent at first level, but a warlock can do it better in an E6 setting.

I'm going to have to agree with that.
The reason I'm asking is that I'm thinking a Human Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 2 would be nice to play, especially if I make the 3rd level feats Iron Will and Reserves of Strength, and nab Practiced Caster at 6th level. End result? Something like CL 9, with the ability to increase it to CL 12, which also removes caps, without losing out on casting, gaining +2 to intelligence, and adding whatever random skill you need at 2nd level. To use Fireball, if I may, Your doing 12d6 while other casters are doing 6d6, so you could probably qualify for being some kind of Great Wizard or something...

More of an NPC thing.

Oh, yeah, this works because Human Paragon does not advance CL; it advances the spellcasting of your previous class, iirc.

Is this the wrong board to post this?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

ninjarabbit

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2010, 08:30:49 PM »
E6 was never balanced to begin with. Heck a wizard with split ray and arcane thesis (scorching ray) can do 24d6 damage with a split rayed scorching ray.

Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2010, 08:46:49 PM »
E6 was never balanced to begin with.
This is true, but I'm not sure using a wizard as an example is saying much. Wizards at almost any level past 3 own pretty much everything else. Later levels only mean owning harder.

Amechra

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2010, 09:19:40 PM »
CL 1211 at 6th level is still good, right?

And does the human paragon+practiced spellcaster trick actually work, or is there an errata that fixes it?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 09:22:34 PM by Amechra »
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Amechra

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2010, 09:45:18 PM »
Dang it

Here's what the relevant part of human paragon says:
Quote
Spells per Day: At 2nd and 3rd level, a human paragon gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of human paragon to the level in the spellcasting class, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

My problem is that the italicized text contradicts the bolded text. So there might be problems.
In fact, noticing that it says spells per day, and not spellcasting level, I would say that you could only get 6 CL using this trick, just like a pure wizard.  :(
And you would have the spells per day of a wizard 5, and for what? I don't think adding another class skill, a bonus feat (in e6 :eh), and +2 to Int (of course) make up for the loss of a second level spell (regained through precocious apprentice), and a 3rd level slot (Extra Slot, maybe  ???)

So, what do you think?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Empirate

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2010, 06:43:25 AM »
As far as I can see, Human Paragon is in no way different from other PrCs that advance spellcasting. So a Wizard 3/HP 3 has the spellcasting of a 5th level Wizard. Add Practiced Spellcaster (+1 coz it's capped by character level), for 5th level Wizard spellcasting with Caster Level 6. Nothing special whatsoever. The +2 to Int and the custom class skills are what is good about HP in E6, and that's it. Remember that you won't even be getting a Headband of Intellect+2 in an E6 game, as the CL requirements rule it out, so that +2 to any stat from HP is pretty decent!

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2010, 02:01:41 PM »
Yeah, Sherem-Lar Sorcery and Sherezem-Lar Sorcery are actually moderately useful in e6.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2010, 02:06:43 PM »
As far as I can see, Human Paragon is in no way different from other PrCs that advance spellcasting. So a Wizard 3/HP 3 has the spellcasting of a 5th level Wizard. Add Practiced Spellcaster (+1 coz it's capped by character level), for 5th level Wizard spellcasting with Caster Level 6. Nothing special whatsoever. The +2 to Int and the custom class skills are what is good about HP in E6, and that's it. Remember that you won't even be getting a Headband of Intellect+2 in an E6 game, as the CL requirements rule it out, so that +2 to any stat from HP is pretty decent!
This is spot on. Human Paragon is still great, though. Take HP1 as your first level, as it doesn't advance spellcasting till level 2, and benefit from the massive skill point boost.
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2010, 03:47:27 PM »
What is "e6"?  :embarrassed
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Havok4

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2010, 04:12:35 PM »
What is "e6"?  :embarrassed

It is a homebrew rules variant where the level cap is at 6 and certain other changes are made to have a low level game.

Amechra

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2010, 10:44:58 PM »
Another question: how high a cl could you get in e6? I know that if you use Reserves of Strength+Arcane Thesis+Sanctum Spell+Primitive Caster+ Storm Magic (Shut up, this is e6, you get as many feats as you want.)
This is a caster lvl of 6-18 at 6th level, but it's highly conditional; is there a better way? (Assume I'm using Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon +2/Wizard +2)
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Empirate

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2010, 08:23:54 AM »
You can get a good caster level in E6 using Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1, or Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Wild Mage 1, with Practiced Spellcaster. You basically get a varying CL 6+d6 on every spell. Nice! Interesting fact: Wild Mage can be entered at CL 1, only has some skill reqs (8 rks), so you can enter with Sorcerer just fine. That's not so great, though, coz Wild Mage 1 doesn't progress spellcasting.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2010, 02:08:44 PM »
You can get a good caster level in E6 using Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1, or Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Wild Mage 1, with Practiced Spellcaster. You basically get a varying CL 6+d6 on every spell. Nice! Interesting fact: Wild Mage can be entered at CL 1, only has some skill reqs (8 rks), so you can enter with Sorcerer just fine. That's not so great, though, coz Wild Mage 1 doesn't progress spellcasting.
Practiced spellcaster is applied after wild mage's wild surge, though, so it isn't as good as you think.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2010, 05:21:17 PM »
You can get a good caster level in E6 using Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1, or Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Wild Mage 1, with Practiced Spellcaster. You basically get a varying CL 6+d6 on every spell. Nice! Interesting fact: Wild Mage can be entered at CL 1, only has some skill reqs (8 rks), so you can enter with Sorcerer just fine. That's not so great, though, coz Wild Mage 1 doesn't progress spellcasting.
Practiced spellcaster is applied after wild mage's wild surge, though, so it isn't as good as you think.
yeah,
and blood shoots out of my eyes over the double-talk in the FAQ.  first it says "always applied when it is most beneficial to the character", and then goes on to completely contradict that in the examples.   :banghead 
I'm not sure if they were dropped on their head(s) too much, or if they were just born that way.  :shrug

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 03:10:12 AM »
You can get a good caster level in E6 using Wizard 5/Wild Mage 1, or Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Wild Mage 1, with Practiced Spellcaster. You basically get a varying CL 6+d6 on every spell. Nice! Interesting fact: Wild Mage can be entered at CL 1, only has some skill reqs (8 rks), so you can enter with Sorcerer just fine. That's not so great, though, coz Wild Mage 1 doesn't progress spellcasting.
Practiced spellcaster is applied after wild mage's wild surge, though, so it isn't as good as you think.
yeah,
and blood shoots out of my eyes over the double-talk in the FAQ.  first it says "always applied when it is most beneficial to the character", and then goes on to completely contradict that in the examples.   :banghead 
I'm not sure if they were dropped on their head(s) too much, or if they were just born that way.  :shrug
Well, practiced spellcaster has a variable benefit, so it's a little different.
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Empirate

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 08:40:27 AM »
I think many people would agree with the "most beneficial" theory and ignore the rest. What's the point of PS otherwise? Wild Mage plus PS isn't overpowering anyway. You lose a level of actual casting, but gain a lot in caster level. Especially in E6, a level of casting is a big deal, and capstone feats require you to go straight base class. I don't think this would be unbalanced.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Does this mix hurt e6?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 02:21:43 PM »
The wildmage caster level change is also applied as a single step.
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