Author Topic: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?  (Read 12659 times)

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Saxony

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2010, 11:04:40 AM »
Heck, Death Effects work too.  This character isn't immune to those.  Finger of Death works to kill.

And since they're using an epic item, this just becomes a "how crazy do we feel like going?" excersise.

Oh, and simple suffocation methods will work too.  Plane Shift to the Elemental Plane of Water.
The character is immune to death effects.

You're right about the epic factor. Mantle of the Fiery Spirit (Cleric 9th level and Druid 8th level spell) grants Fire subtype permanently. I'm sure there's an even better solution than that.

Plane shift would require touch attack and will save and spell resistance. Props for creativity, though. I think there are specialized spells that drown and would be superior. Plus, having 40ish rounds to contact one's friends before they drown defeats Plane of Water drowning.
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McPoyo

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2010, 01:11:16 PM »
MotFS was updated in Spell Compendium. It has a duration now.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2010, 02:04:30 PM »
MotFS was updated in Spell Compendium. It has a duration now.

It wasn't, actually. Just Mantle of the Icy Soul.

McPoyo

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2010, 03:03:00 PM »
MotFS was updated in Spell Compendium. It has a duration now.

It wasn't, actually. Just Mantle of the Icy Soul.
What? DAMNIT!
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Surreal

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2010, 04:22:55 PM »
Lumi can't be decapitated.  They have no necks.

Oh. For some reason I was thinking that was Illumian :P

Guess You'll just have to stick to death effects/BFC from now on.

Nope, Lumi are immune to most death effects (though you could probably nitpick the wording and find a specific one that might work).
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2010, 04:48:17 PM »
Searing Spell is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.  A simple practical option that would allow someone to pose a serious threat to the character that doesn't outright kill them.

Sorry again for not clarifying before, but I'm approacing this more from a DM perspective than a player perspective.  As a DM I don't believe in simply killing off player characters, unless they are victims of circumstance that they had all the resources to prevent.  It's unfair to them because as the DM I've seen their character sheets and as such are totally prepared for them while they are totally unprepared for me.  Moreover unless the story calls for it, it's also boring for me to build a party of somethings that perfectly counters everything the players can do.
The situation isn't really about an obnoxious player that needs to be put in his place.  It's about an honest player that came up with a character idea that scares the hell out of me and wants to play it.  He doesn't need to be killed, he needs to be challenged.

Sun Tzu's Art of War: Attack your enemies weaknesses and don't play to his strengths. That's about as realistic as combat gets.
Yeah but this isn't really war.  Yet.  It's a roleplaying game that tells a story.  Unless the story calls for it then attacking the players weaknesses is not only boring but invalidates the characters.  What's the point of strengths if you don't get to enjoy them?


A horizontal Gate to the Positive Energy plane opened above the character facing downward + Reverse Gravity?  Instant death.  Boring.

Encountering a crazy fire mage with the Searing Spell feat?  Well he only does half damage (plus half again for cold subtype), so he's a threat that you can't simply march up to and facemelt.  Now it's getting interesting.

Encountering a Master Spellthief with a caster level of 200-something?  The entire party couldn't beat that.  As far as I'm concerned those kinds of things aren't meant to be played.  But if that's what it takes to pose a threat to this character then maybe this character isn't meant to be played either.

A vorpal sword?  If it succeeds it's instant death.  If it fails it does nothing.  Boring.  Plus vorpal is expensive and otherwise generally useless in a practically optimized environment.  Few people are going to run around with it.  The more frequently it pops up the more I begin to roll my eyes.

Graymantle and Remove Trait?  Anyone who hunts trolls would have access to it, plus a little trollbane poison which ordinarily would be great.  It won't kill you outright, and you still get to ignore rogues but you now suddenly have to worry about making saves and getting hit.  Now you have to think again.

Trapping the Soul?  MDJ?  More instant death.  More boring.  As a player it's something I'd consider to kill an invincible NPC.  As a DM I should be above that unless I don't want people to play in my games anymore.

Battlefield control?  To slow him down I suppose.  But beyond that it's a lot like asking the player to sit there and watch while everyone else plays the game.  I don't know about the rest of you but as a player I'd be pretty pissed.  I show up to play.

Domination?  Turn one of the party's biggest assets into one of their biggest threats.  Always a good option, especially if you let the player attack the party himself instead of telling him how to do it.
Of course eventually the party will become largely immune to it.


Then finally the biggest problem isn't the lack of options... it's the perpetual lack of options.
Realistically how many people are there that hunt trolls and take the Searing Spell feat?  A few maybe, but why is it that we seem to run into them every single session, and they all want to kill us?  Attempting to kill the players the same way over and over again eventually becomes just as boring as killing them outright without a save.

Thank you for reading the rant and for all the suggestions thus far.
:)

Brainpiercing

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2010, 05:02:46 PM »
Actually debuffs using penalties are your best bet. The player will still be invincible, but he'll not be able to kill everyone.

Also, if the guy wants to play this guy give him some really strong RPing conditions. For instance, a vow he took and really mustn't break. (It doesn't have to carry a mechanical penalty, just think Kenshin or something, but maybe less obnoxious.)

And THEN challenge his morals and ideals, and not his life. For instance, make him choose between saving  one of his parents or a group of innocent bystanders. He'll hate you for it, but the character will get invariably emotionally stronger.
Even, make him the focal point of a war-like campaign, but make him realize he can't be everywhere. He needs strategic guidance from the other PCs. He needs logistics, information, and above all people he can trust not to backstab (by attacking friends, most likely) or use him. He may be the single most invincible force of destruction, but he can't actually RULE anything without help.

And finally, if a fight is not challenging, don't roll it, just prepare a pre-written piece of text. But prepare OPTIONS. He needs to make choices, not roll dice, with a character like that.

McPoyo

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2010, 05:10:39 PM »
Sounds kinda like superman, there. Put him through a Crisis-like moment (and I don't mean the videogame)
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Absolon

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2010, 05:32:40 PM »
Not that tough a nut to crack if you're a reasonably powerful wizard.  

The Graymantle spell can deal with the regeneration problem.  Trap the Soul or Imprison Soul combined with a BOVD use of a soul means complete unresurrectable oblivion, and ignores bodily resilience.  A simple Plane Shift to the Negative Energy Plane would finish him, simply because there is no air there, and living creatures like Fey need to breathe.  A well made Bestow Curse or its Greater version can deprive him of any number of possible things (I need little reason to plug Greater Bestow Curse, it's my favorite spell ever).    

The only one of those options that I would not consider doing to enemies in general is Graymantle, and I'd more than likely have a scroll of it on me for just these sorts of things.  The fact that you're not undead just gives me more options, but even then, that monster isn't immune to getting its soul sucked out or being cursed hardcore in some sadistically amusing way  :smirk.  

Havok4

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2010, 08:26:59 PM »
Another option is just to put the regen immunity idea this tread is based is just to find a way to mundanely trap the creature. Like throwing them into a volcano or similar, yes it will not kill them but they will not be able to escape on their own. It is not the most efficient method but it is the most fun.

Rymosrac

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2010, 09:10:26 PM »
That's always been my policy when dealing with players who go for invulnerability builds. If there's no sensible way to challenge them without just obliterating them, just use obstacles they can't overcome to stalemate them - this ensures they still require the other party members in other to accomplish the party's objectives - which in turn means that the "invincible" character needs to help ensure the survival of other party members or he fails just as surely as if he himself had been killed. And best of all, it still lets them play the "invincible" character concept they wanted without feeling like the DM is out to smite them dead.

We actually have this exact party dynamic developing in my current game, and so far it's gone very well. It's an interesting changeup from the usual roles and behaviors I see.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 09:12:40 PM by Rymosrac »
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

Brainpiercing

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2010, 07:26:27 AM »
You just can't be a lazy GM with a character like that.

Rymosrac

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2010, 12:25:00 PM »
No more than you can be a lazy GM with a competent full caster in the party.
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

Brainpiercing

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2010, 07:42:21 PM »
No more than you can be a lazy GM with a competent full caster in the party.
So true.

skydragonknight

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2010, 07:43:56 PM »
Swallow Whole. A LOT. Every game needs a running gag. Let your game's gag be that Mr. Invincible is also the Everlasting Gobstopper.
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Prime32

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2010, 07:46:45 PM »
Swallow Whole. A LOT.
You are swallowed by a dragon which is swallowed by a tendriculous which is swallowed by another dragon which is swallowed by a tarrasque.
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2010, 08:04:19 PM »
Swallow Whole. A LOT.
You are swallowed by a dragon which is swallowed by a tendriculous which is swallowed by another dragon which is swallowed by a tarrasque.

About 2 days later the character comes back to camp smelling rather foul and refuses to talk about about what what happened.

Rymosrac

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2010, 08:16:53 PM »
While you're at it, throw in the "Delicious" commoner flaw from Dragon 330.
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2010, 12:25:00 PM »
And how do you deal Fire damage to him while he's inside an AMF?  With alchemist fire?  
Shrink Item + lava. I actually have shrunken lava on a character I'm currently playing, so no I don't think it's unrealistic.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2010, 12:40:03 PM »
And how do you deal Fire damage to him while he's inside an AMF?  With alchemist fire?  
Shrink Item + lava. I actually have shrunken lava on a character I'm currently playing, so no I don't think it's unrealistic.
Orb of Fire spells.
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