Author Topic: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?  (Read 12660 times)

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Tonymitsu

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Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« on: May 30, 2010, 03:25:00 AM »
Fiend Folio pg 186.
-wendigo is an acquired template that can be applied to any giant, fey, humanoid, magical beast, animal or monstrous humanoid.  You become a fey, gain a fly speed, and a bunch of supernatural abilities.  You also gain the cold subtype and Regeneration 5, taking normal damage only from fire.


Five Nations pg 117
-You can create a set of Bonecraft armor that only you can wear.  Among other things, at level 4 it makes you immune to subdual damage, and at level 8 you become immune to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, and death effects.


So next you put on a Ring of Energy Immunity: Fire pay for a Ritual of the Elements for Savage Species to gain the fire subtype, and get a Ring of Sustenance.


...how the hell do you kill this character now?

EDIT: protection from death effects noted
EDIT2: Non-epic protection from fire that functions in an AMF noted.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 04:12:15 PM by Tonymitsu »

Negative Zero

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 03:39:39 AM »
There are a bunch of ways; unbeatable regen + nonlethal immunity comes up every now and then on these boards.

CantripN

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2010, 03:47:33 AM »
For starters, if I'm being cheap, I'll use Trollbane (DS) on my One Hit, One Kill NPCs... If not, Grapple to remove the Ring, Antimagic Field, any of the many spells that prevent Fast Healing / Regeneration, deal Vile/Frostburn damage, Vorpal Weapons... There are a LOT more options.
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Naldor

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2010, 03:49:52 AM »
Lets see, what can I come up with off the top of my head that sub ecl-20 characters could do:
  • Epic Spells
  • Implosion (not a negative energy effect)
  • MDJ + Fire
  • AMF should shut down regen, I'm guessing its a Su ability
  • There's a Tiger Claw maneuver which forces a Fort Save or die, not a death effect
  • Baleful Polymorph
  • Teleport Through Time
  • 3 instances of that Cleric spell which automatically gives you a natural 20.  Combine with Vorpal for fun and Profit.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 03:51:37 AM by Naldor »

snakeman830

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2010, 10:58:49 AM »
Heck, Death Effects work too.  This character isn't immune to those.  Finger of Death works to kill.

And since they're using an epic item, this just becomes a "how crazy do we feel like going?" excersise.

Oh, and simple suffocation methods will work too.  Plane Shift to the Elemental Plane of Water.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 11:05:16 AM by snakeman830 »
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Bastian

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2010, 12:22:59 PM »
So next you put on a Ring of Energy Immunity: Fire, and a Ring of Sustenance.
I would suggest that you use Ring of the Blazing Sun (gives you the fire subtype) rather than an epic item.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 01:25:13 PM by Bastian »

geniussavant

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2010, 01:40:50 PM »
If I'm not mistaken the smilodon from frostburn has good stats for its HD and its only large. I know u said no templates, but there's a template in dungeonscape. Sorry I can't give you the name, but I'm away from books for the moment.
 
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2010, 01:47:52 PM »
Well, the TBoS had more immunities by far than this, and everyone saw what myself, anklebite, and bearsarebrown did to him :lmao
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2010, 02:22:21 PM »
The regeneration is a (Ex) special quality granted by the template, just like the cold subtype.  It functions in an anti-magic field.
The Bonecraft armor and every feature it grants, including the Exoskeleton of Undeath, is also an (Ex) ability.


Trollbane won't work.  It's an injury poison and Bonecraft armor also makes you immune to poisons (and diseases).
Frostburn damage won't work, since he has the cold subtype and is immune to cold.  Vile damage looks like a good candidate for the moment.
Baleful Polymorph would work right up until he finds that armor enhancement that makes you immune to Transmutation spells.

And how do you deal Fire damage to him while he's inside an AMF?  With alchemist fire?  Unless you rule that multiple applications of being on fire stack with themselves I don't think he'd even care enough to put it out during combat.

And I thought for sure I put it in the first post but clearly I didn't; Bonecraft armor also makes you immune to death attacks.  Unless I missed something else obvious, how is Implosion and Feral Death Blow going to get around that?  The immunity provided by Bonecraft armor has nothing to do with negative energy.  It's just like an undead's immunity, without actually making you undead.  The rules compendium defines a death attack in one sentence as any attack or effect which instantly kills a character outright.

MDJ is an option to strip his fire/polymorph protection I suppose, but by RAW I don't think it would do anything beyond that.  Five Nations describes Bonecraft armor essentially as a suit of masterwork armor made with a mundane craft check that can only be worn by the bone knight.  It even says at one point how the suit can be "further enhanced through magic", in such a way that heavily implies magic is not involved to begin with.

So far Vile damage and vorpal weapons are the two best, if not the most exotic, options.  I should have clarified more in the first post but the other problem here is it's not just about killing the character outright.  Theoretically this is something that someone would want to play in a campaign and somehow needs to be realistically challenged, not just killed.  Doing anything involving the fire protection on his gear involves logical deduction during combat (to find the enchantment) at best, or heavily researching the PC at worst, neither of which is very practical or realistic, IMO.
Or is this simply a concept that should not be played?


But thank you, Bastian, for pointing out that ring... not just because the ring is awesome but also that reminded of the Ritual of the Elements from Savage Species that can grant the fire subtype for 1,440 XP and 36,000 gp.
So that takes care of any lingering doubts from MDJ and anti-magic fields.

What are some of these spells and effects that remove fast healing/regeneration?  I know of Graymantle but are there any others, like an environmental or planar effect?

SKRP

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2010, 02:27:45 PM »
Vile damage looks like a good candidate for the moment.

Dessication damage from Sandstorm (applied by many spells or Dry Liches) could work too.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2010, 02:30:31 PM »
CL 174 MDJ, Trait Removal on that pesky regen, or Polymorph into something pathetic (good luck with that DC 100+ saving throw), face-stomp at leisure.  Really, once you drop the magical effects and maybe the regen, he's a boned Bone Knight.
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Widow

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2010, 02:49:01 PM »
I need to find that sage ruling (which of course I don't consider official until I see in the FAQ or errata) that stated if you had regen, were immune to subdual damage, and were immune to the one or two things that cause real damage that you loss your regen.  As stated earlier, this has come up a few times.

Personally I like to avoid this tatic because weird status effects are usually far worse than hit point damage.

Tonymitsu

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2010, 03:02:12 PM »
CL 174 MDJ, Trait Removal on that pesky regen, or Polymorph into something pathetic (good luck with that DC 100+ saving throw), face-stomp at leisure.  Really, once you drop the magical effects and maybe the regen, he's a boned Bone Knight.

But that still leaves the problem of challenging him in a realistic fashion versus stomping his face in the dirt.

It's also the removal of magical effects that bothers me.  Suppose he does the element ritual and simply walks around everywhere with a persisted AMF?
MSF could disjunct it, but then what?  An afflicted lycanthrope could revert back from being polymorphed, and any other spell that's cast on him does nothing when he recasts AMF on his round.


I guess dessication damage is an option but it bothers me that it doesn't specifically call out regeneration like vile damage does.  And now that I double-check frostburn damage doesn't either.  I had initially dismissed that because of the cold subtype.


I need to find that sage ruling (which of course I don't consider official until I see in the FAQ or errata) that stated if you had regen, were immune to subdual damage, and were immune to the one or two things that cause real damage that you loss your regen.  As stated earlier, this has come up a few times.

Personally I like to avoid this tatic because weird status effects are usually far worse than hit point damage.

That reeks of a knee-jerk, reactionary, counter-rule in light of the possibility of creating a character basically immune to hit point damage.  Unless there is some hidden logic somewhere in the definitions of regeneration and subdual damage that would warrant such a ruling.

skydragonknight

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2010, 03:02:40 PM »
Would Searing Spell metamagic work?

Also, expect Psions with True Mind Switch to chase after this guy wherever he goes.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 03:05:51 PM by skydragonknight »
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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2010, 03:08:17 PM »
Regen requires a CON score, but you can still have it while immune to subdual damage.

I'd go with Trap the Soul. No save, no SR if you gull the guy into accepting your trigger item.

skydragonknight

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2010, 03:10:11 PM »
Plane Shift him to the Positive Energy Plane and let him die to Death By Awesome. He can't reduce his own hit point total, so he's totally screwed.

AMF? Cause a Planar Breach and Bull Rush him in for all I care.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 03:13:56 PM by skydragonknight »
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Mixster

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2010, 03:28:00 PM »
Hit him with ability and level drain and help him out of his armour when he is helpless, then chop his head off.

It is a rather powerful combination, and if you are a cheater of mystra as well, it just gets sillier.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2010, 03:30:19 PM »
Quote
-You can create a set of Bonecraft armor that only you can wear.  Among other things, at level 4 it makes you immune to subdual damage, and at level 8 you become immune to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, and death effects.

Gotta read at least the first post in it's entirety. ;)
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Negative Zero

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2010, 03:43:13 PM »
Implosion and Feral Death Blow aren't [Death] effects, so they work fine.

skydragonknight

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Re: Wendigo Template + Bone Knight = ?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2010, 03:46:03 PM »
Heck, Imprisonment would still work. It can become one of the sealed evils in the world that's set free in a future campaign. :D
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