Author Topic: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round  (Read 33826 times)

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Sohala

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2010, 11:24:13 AM »
I get the concept, really rad so many kudos for that.  Slightly confused though, where are the extra granted maneuvers coming from?  Or does the Mot9 grant those and I'm just not reading closely enough?
An extra readied = extra granted, so he is taking a few prc that have readied off set from extra known, then appling known to either warblade or swordsage, and giving all the extra readied to crusader (give or take a level or two).
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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2010, 01:15:50 PM »
I'm pretty sure there was a ruling that your Granted Maneuvers ALWAYS = readied maneuvers -3, unless you take the Extra Granted feat, in which case it is always -2.

Do you have a source for this ruling? I don't remember reading that in Tome of Battle, but something like this has never come up before.

Optimized or no, just being able to turn a supposed drawback (the crusader's wonky maneuver selection system) into a benefit is already an achievement in itself.  :smirk

Actually, the Crusader's recovery mechanic is viewed as superior for the reason that it doesn't use any actions, while the rest of the initiator classes do.
It's also random and doesn't happen all at once. I consider it either tied or inferior to the Warblade mechanic. Having never played a Crusader all the way to 20 (or even 10), I can't really comment.
It's, at worst, tied with warblade. In most situations I've encountered (which went up to 16th in one case, and 18th in another) it's superior. Yes, you may not always have the specific maneuver you want in the first round, but you've got them continuously rolling through, and outside of round 2, it really doesn't matter anymore, since whatever you've readied, you'll be using.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2010, 01:43:57 PM »
It's, at worst, tied with warblade. In most situations I've encountered (which went up to 16th in one case, and 18th in another) it's superior. Yes, you may not always have the specific maneuver you want in the first round, but you've got them continuously rolling through, and outside of round 2, it really doesn't matter anymore, since whatever you've readied, you'll be using.
Well... I haven't played a higher level Crusader, but I've played a higher level dipper with both Warblade and Crusader, and I've found that there is merit in having what you want, when you want it.
At the same time, usually a Warblade will keep his damage output up while recovering, because he can full-attack, whereas Crusaders rarely do that while using maneuvers.

Garryl

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2010, 01:16:04 AM »
Ok, I've found it:
Quote from: ToB
If you choose to add the maneuver readied to
a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class
levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the
beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver
you can ready.

That means that you really can get a ton of granted maneuvers.

Now what would be the SIMPLEST build you could make to use this mechanism? No multiple 9th level maneuvers, just a fully refreshing Crusader?

The basic concept just needs to get 2 extra maneuvers granted and the Extra Granted Maneuver feat, along with any other martial adept class to eat the extra maneuvers known. Outside of Master of Nine, that means at least 6 levels of PrCs as all others grant at best one extra maneuver readied per 3 levels. Bloodclaw Master and Deepstone Sentinel are at 3. Mo9 is at 1/2/3/4/5. Eternal Blade and JPM are at 3/6/9. SSN is at 5/10. RKV is at 5/9.

Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/Commoner 16/Master of Nine 2 would work for the simplest method possible. Swordsage even provides one of the feat requirements for Mo9 via Unarmed Swordsage, although you still have enough feats without that. Commoner can, naturally, be replaced with the class(es) of your choice.



On a separate note, what level does Ur-Priest get 9th level spells? I'm trying to see if you can get 9th level spells with 10 maneuvers granted. Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 2/Crusader 1/Ur-Priest 1/RKV 9/Mo9 5 gets CL 8th, 10 granted, and Divine Impetus off of one turning pool. Dropping two levels of Mo9 for one each of RKV and Ur-Priest grants 10th level casting and a second turning pool, but drops the maneuvers granted to 8.

What happens if you don't have any maneuvers available to choose when you get some maneuvers known? Crusaders get 5 known at first level, but only have 6 total to choose from. What if you were to select 2 or more of those with your Warblade/Swordsage levels before entering Crusader? Would you only have 2-4 maneuvers known instead of the full 5? If so, this would save a huge boost, freeing up a few maneuver slots that would otherwise be filled with lower level maneuvers.
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bananaphone

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2010, 07:05:42 AM »
Quote
What happens if you don't have any maneuvers available to choose when you get some maneuvers known? Crusaders get 5 known at first level, but only have 6 total to choose from. What if you were to select 2 or more of those with your Warblade/Swordsage levels before entering Crusader? Would you only have 2-4 maneuvers known instead of the full 5? If so, this would save a huge boost, freeing up a few maneuver slots that would otherwise be filled with lower level maneuvers.
I could actually see this working since you cannot learn the same maneuver twice. 
I was thinking what was the use of a Crusader that refreshed all his maneuvers as granted, when they would all be low level maneuvers, but this could solve that problem.

Brainpiercing

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2010, 07:24:02 AM »
Quote
What happens if you don't have any maneuvers available to choose when you get some maneuvers known? Crusaders get 5 known at first level, but only have 6 total to choose from. What if you were to select 2 or more of those with your Warblade/Swordsage levels before entering Crusader? Would you only have 2-4 maneuvers known instead of the full 5? If so, this would save a huge boost, freeing up a few maneuver slots that would otherwise be filled with lower level maneuvers.
I could actually see this working since you cannot learn the same maneuver twice. 
I was thinking what was the use of a Crusader that refreshed all his maneuvers as granted, when they would all be low level maneuvers, but this could solve that problem.
This would only work if you do at most three other levels before Crusader1, or else the number of maneuvers will increase. Total maneuvers known would still stay the same, but you could fill them at a higher level. Nice.

bananaphone

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2010, 07:50:45 AM »
Quote
This would only work if you do at most three other levels before Crusader1, or else the number of maneuvers will increase. Total maneuvers known would still stay the same, but you could fill them at a higher level. Nice.
This is true.  Let's try an example...

Crusader has access to Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven.
Warblade has access to Stone Dragon and White Raven.
Warblade-2 has 4 maneuvers known.  So we pick up the only 2 available maneuvers in Stone dragon, and the only 2 available maneuvers in White Raven.
Now we take our 1st level in Crusader.  Since our Crusader initiator level is only 2, we only have access to 1st level maneuvers.  And since our Warblade side took all the Stone Dragon and White Raven Maneuvers, we only have 2 maneuvers from Devoted Spirit to choose. 
At level 3, we have our Crusader refreshing all of his maneuvers every round.

So now we can build our character from here using any TOB prestige class to mix and match where our maneuvers known/readied go.
If this character were human, we could use 2 feats on Martial Study, and pick up both 1st level Devoted Spirit maneuvers.  Now our Crusader side has no available maneuvers to learn until you pick up another prestige class and decide to add to your Crusader side for maneuvers known.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 01:16:53 PM by bananaphone »

fuinjutsu

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2010, 10:31:07 AM »
I'm pretty sure there was a ruling that your Granted Maneuvers ALWAYS = readied maneuvers -3, unless you take the Extra Granted feat, in which case it is always -2.

Do you have a source for this ruling? I don't remember reading that in Tome of Battle, but something like this has never come up before.


One of the online articles.  never comes up in the book.  Someone asked about Prc's advancing crusader and what it does to Maneuvers Granted, answer was that it goes up every time maneuvers readied goes up.

And anyway, doesn't a crusader only use her readied maneuvers, with the unreadied not being granted until she changes her readied maneuvers?
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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2010, 01:00:24 PM »
this would really be nuts in a gestalt game if you take factotum for standard action cheese on the other side.
should i ever get to play gestalt again this is something i will definitely try
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bananaphone

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2010, 01:10:10 PM »
Quote
One of the online articles.  never comes up in the book.  Someone asked about Prc's advancing crusader and what it does to Maneuvers Granted, answer was that it goes up every time maneuvers readied goes up.

Actually, this does come up in the book on page 96:

[spoiler]Maneuvers Readied: When indicated, you gain the ability
to ready one or more additional martial maneuvers. If you
have more than one martial maneuver progression, you must
choose which progression the additional readied maneuver
slot applies to. If you choose to add the maneuver readied to
a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class
levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the
beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver
you can ready.[/spoiler]


Basically this trick only works as long as you don't learn more maneuvers than you are granted
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 01:26:53 PM by bananaphone »

Saxony

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2010, 01:12:10 PM »
I'm pretty sure there was a ruling that your Granted Maneuvers ALWAYS = readied maneuvers -3, unless you take the Extra Granted feat, in which case it is always -2.

Do you have a source for this ruling? I don't remember reading that in Tome of Battle, but something like this has never come up before.


One of the online articles.  never comes up in the book.  Someone asked about Prc's advancing crusader and what it does to Maneuvers Granted, answer was that it goes up every time maneuvers readied goes up.

And anyway, doesn't a crusader only use her readied maneuvers, with the unreadied not being granted until she changes her readied maneuvers?
Yes for the second part. Not sure why it applies here, though.

You're right about the first part. Tome of Battle 96 (Advancing Martial Progressions->Maneuvers Readied) clearly states that if a Maneuver Readied is added to a Crusader Progression, then they also get a Maneuver Granted.

This doesn't defeat the initial concept, though it does defeat Garryl's first idea. Edit: I was wrong about that.
Garryl had another idea however.

If you use the strategy of making your Swordsage level and Warblade level learn every maneuver from both Stone Dragon and White Raven so Crusader can only learn two maneuvers from Devoted Spirit from their 5 maneuvers known (because one cannot learn a maneuver twice), and thus only have 2 readied maneuvers (because one cannot ready a maneuver twice) and 2 granted maneuvers...

... That'll do it. Then you will have 2 manuevers readied and 2 granted. Whenever you get another maneuver readied, you will also get another maneuver granted. Once you do that, you will have to make sure that for every new maneuver known, you also get another maneuver readied (and thus another maneuver granted). Thus when you have 5 maneuvers known, you will be able to ready only 5 maneuvers and also have 5 manuevers granted. This is easily done by foisting off the maneuvers known you can't handle yet onto other martial progressions.

Optimized or no, just being able to turn a supposed drawback (the crusader's wonky maneuver selection system) into a benefit is already an achievement in itself.  :smirk
Actually, the Crusader's recovery mechanic is viewed as superior for the reason that it doesn't use any actions, while the rest of the initiator classes do.
It's also random and doesn't happen all at once. I consider it either tied or inferior to the Warblade mechanic. Having never played a Crusader all the way to 20 (or even 10), I can't really comment.
It's, at worst, tied with warblade. In most situations I've encountered (which went up to 16th in one case, and 18th in another) it's superior. Yes, you may not always have the specific maneuver you want in the first round, but you've got them continuously rolling through, and outside of round 2, it really doesn't matter anymore, since whatever you've readied, you'll be using.
Right on. I'll take your word for it.

On a separate note, what level does Ur-Priest get 9th level spells? I'm trying to see if you can get 9th level spells with 10 maneuvers granted. Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 2/Crusader 1/Ur-Priest 1/RKV 9/Mo9 5 gets CL 8th, 10 granted, and Divine Impetus off of one turning pool. Dropping two levels of Mo9 for one each of RKV and Ur-Priest grants 10th level casting and a second turning pool, but drops the maneuvers granted to 8.
Ur Priest gets 9th level spells at 9th level. RKV 10 gives 8 caster levels, and Ur Priest 1 of course supplies 1 caster level. You will need Ur Priest 1/RKV 10 to get 9 levels of Ur Priest casting. Or Ur Priest 2/RKV 9 (2 CL + 7CL).

Your build currently does not acquire 9th level spells. So its either another level of RKV or another level of Ur Priest. The number of levels in Ur Priest and RKV added together have to be 11 or more.

So go:
Blah 3/Crusader 2/Ur 2/RKV 9/Mot9 4
... It would grant 9th level spells. It would have a Crusader IL 17, just barely granting 9th level maneuvers. It avoids the extra maneuver known at Crusader 3.

It has 9 Maneuvers Granted. It would have 9 Maneuvers Known using the second trick thought up by Garryl (foisting off Maneuvers Known to other martial progressions so that Known <= Granted). It has 12 Maneuvers readied, but can only ready 9 of them, because it knows 9 maneuvers and one cannot ready a maneuver twice. Thus, it has 9 maneuvers readied and 9 granted. Garryl's first trick in which every Maneuver Readied is refreshed and granted every round applies in this situation. It has 9th level maneuvers and 9th level spells.

Toss in Extra Granted Maneuver and it gets 10 Maneuvers Granted, 10 Known, and 13 Readied. Just another maneuver to add to the list. Other prestige classes beside Master of the Nine can also be used, of course.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 06:19:43 PM by Saxony »
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Garryl

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2010, 03:17:48 PM »
I'm pretty sure there was a ruling that your Granted Maneuvers ALWAYS = readied maneuvers -3, unless you take the Extra Granted feat, in which case it is always -2.

Do you have a source for this ruling? I don't remember reading that in Tome of Battle, but something like this has never come up before.


One of the online articles.  never comes up in the book.  Someone asked about Prc's advancing crusader and what it does to Maneuvers Granted, answer was that it goes up every time maneuvers readied goes up.

And anyway, doesn't a crusader only use her readied maneuvers, with the unreadied not being granted until she changes her readied maneuvers?
Yes for the second part. Not sure why it applies here, though.

You're right about the first part. Tome of Battle 96 (Advancing Martial Progressions->Maneuvers Readied) clearly states that if a Maneuver Readied is added to a Crusader Progression, then they also get a Maneuver Granted.

This doesn't defeat the initial concept, though it does defeat Garryl's first idea. Garryl had another idea however.

If you use the strategy of making your Swordsage level and Warblade level learn every maneuver from both Stone Dragon and White Raven so Crusader can only learn two maneuvers from Devoted Spirit from their 5 maneuvers known (because one cannot learn a maneuver twice), and thus only have 2 readied maneuvers (because one cannot ready a maneuver twice) and 2 granted maneuvers...

... That'll do it. Then you will have 2 manuevers readied and 2 granted. Whenever you get another maneuver readied, you will also get another maneuver granted. Once you do that, you will have to make sure that for every new maneuver known, you also get another maneuver readied (and thus another maneuver granted). Thus when you have 5 maneuvers known, you will be able to ready only 5 maneuvers and also have 5 manuevers granted. This is easily done by foisting off the maneuvers known you can't handle yet onto other martial progressions.

Eh? What do you mean that this defeats it? It's half of my premise. By adding the maneuvers readied to Crusader you get more maneuvers readied and more granted until you have as many granted at once as you have known. The entries talking about granted maneuvers never refer to them relative to the amount of maneuvers you have readied at any given time, only to how you get more granted whenever you get more readied. I don't see how you think it defeats the original build.



Quote
On a separate note, what level does Ur-Priest get 9th level spells? I'm trying to see if you can get 9th level spells with 10 maneuvers granted. Cloistered Cleric 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 2/Crusader 1/Ur-Priest 1/RKV 9/Mo9 5 gets CL 8th, 10 granted, and Divine Impetus off of one turning pool. Dropping two levels of Mo9 for one each of RKV and Ur-Priest grants 10th level casting and a second turning pool, but drops the maneuvers granted to 8.
Ur Priest gets 9th level spells at 9th level. RKV 10 gives 8 caster levels, and Ur Priest 1 of course supplies 1 caster level. You will need Ur Priest 1/RKV 10 to get 9 levels of Ur Priest casting. Or Ur Priest 2/RKV 9 (2 CL + 7CL).

Your build currently does not acquire 9th level spells. So its either another level of RKV or another level of Ur Priest. The number of levels in Ur Priest and RKV added together have to be 11 or more.

So go:
Blah 3/Crusader 2/Ur 2/RKV 9/Mot9 4
... It would grant 9th level spells. It would have a Crusader IL 17, just barely granting 9th level maneuvers. It avoids the extra maneuver known at Crusader 3.

It has 8 Maneuvers Granted. It would have 8 Maneuvers Known using the second trick thought up by Garryl (foisting off Maneuvers Known to other martial progressions so that Known <= Granted). It has 13 Maneuvers readied, but can only ready 8 of them, because it knows 8 maneuvers and one cannot ready a maneuver twice. Thus, it has 8 maneuvers readied and 8 granted. Garryl's first trick in which every Maneuver Readied is refreshed and granted every round applies in this situation. It has 9th level maneuvers and 9th level spells.

Toss in Extra Granted Maneuver and it gets 9 Maneuvers Granted, 9 Known, and 13 Readied. Just another maneuver to add to the list.

Azurin Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Master of Nine 4
Use the Channel Incarnum ACF to get an extra turning pool, and possible turn dragons or something if Dread Necro doesn't stack with Ur-Priest for turns/day. Gets Knowledge Devotion and two other domains that can supply prerequisite feats for Mo9.

IL 17th, 9 maneuvers granted (1@1st, 1@5th, 1@6th, 2@7th, 3@8th, 1@9th), 9th level spells, 3 turning pools, Divine Impetus, Early maneuver eating to get higher level Crusader maneuvers known (Warblade 1 and 2 feats at 1st level to leave only one selectable Crusader maneuver).

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[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
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[/spoiler]

Saxony

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2010, 04:27:36 PM »
Eh? What do you mean that this defeats it? It's half of my premise. By adding the maneuvers readied to Crusader you get more maneuvers readied and more granted until you have as many granted at once as you have known. The entries talking about granted maneuvers never refer to them relative to the amount of maneuvers you have readied at any given time, only to how you get more granted whenever you get more readied. I don't see how you think it defeats the original build.
Late night posting is great for getting things wrong. Sorry, my mistake.

You incorrectly added stuff from Shadow Sun Ninja to the Crusader progression. You didn't have a Crusader maneuver progression at the time, so doing that would be impossible. Edit: I was wrong.

Also, I think this trick works if # Granted >= # Readied OR Known. That's because one cannot ready a maneuver twice so even if one has more Maneuvers Readied than Maneuvers Known, # of Readied Manuevers <= # of Known. So # Granted >= # Actually Readied if # Granted >= Maneuvers Readied or # Granted >= Maneuvers Known.

Also, every RKV ability specifies Turn/Rebuke Undead (as does Divine Meta Magic). So Turn Dragons or Oozes or Fire elementals won't work. Has to be Turn/Rebuke Undead.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 06:19:05 PM by Saxony »
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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2010, 04:42:12 PM »
The Rebuke Dragons, Turn Energy, and the Incarnum thingy all specifically say they count as Turn Undead attempts for qualifying and activating abilities.
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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2010, 04:48:53 PM »
Don't forget the vermin one from DotU.

Garryl

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2010, 07:13:44 PM »
You incorrectly added stuff from Shadow Sun Ninja to the Crusader progression. You didn't have a Crusader maneuver progression at the time, so doing that would be impossible.

SSN only gives its first readied maneuver at 5th level. Similarly, Bloodclaw Master grants one at 3rd. I only took them to 4th/2nd, respectively before the Crusader level, so when I take their 5th/3rd levels, I get to add the maneuver readied to the newly existent Crusader progression. I addressed it in the original post.
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[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
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Saxony

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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2010, 08:26:57 PM »
The Rebuke Dragons, Turn Energy, and the Incarnum thingy all specifically say they count as Turn Undead attempts for qualifying and activating abilities.
That's cool. I admit I didn't know that other stuff.

I don't think the Fire Domain counts, however.
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Re: The Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2010, 08:28:07 PM »
You incorrectly added stuff from Shadow Sun Ninja to the Crusader progression. You didn't have a Crusader maneuver progression at the time, so doing that would be impossible.

SSN only gives its first readied maneuver at 5th level. Similarly, Bloodclaw Master grants one at 3rd. I only took them to 4th/2nd, respectively before the Crusader level, so when I take their 5th/3rd levels, I get to add the maneuver readied to the newly existent Crusader progression. I addressed it in the original post.
Totally missed the extra levels. My bad.
If I say something about real world physics, and someone disagrees, assume I am right 90% of the time. This number goes up to 100% if I am late night posting - trust me, my star dust sibs.