Author Topic: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?  (Read 5674 times)

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Saeomon

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I've been pondering a very small bit of text in the description of the Magic Mantle in Complete Psionic. That text states, "you always treat magic and psionics as identical," if your character possesses the granted ability of the Magic Mantle. As I've mulled this over, I've only grown more and more convinced that this could very well be one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game.

Here's my interpretation. This is a straightforward declarative sentence stating an absolute. The sentence has three key words: "you," "always," and "identical."

The word "you" is important because it means that only the possessor of the ability treats magic and psionics as identical. Any magic used by the possessor of this ability is not treated as psionics by others, nor is any psionics used by the possessor of this ability treated as magic by others, simply by virtue of the possessor's possession of this ability.

The word "always" is important because it sets the limits of this power's effect. For the possessor of this ability, it is forever in effect. It is never turned off. There is never a moment where the possessor does not treat magic as psionics or vice-versa.

The word "identical" is important because it denotes exactly how the possessor of this ability treats magic and psionics. In actuality, for the possessor of this ability, all magic is psionics, and all psionics is magic. They are not simply transparent; the two systems are one and the same.

If you're beginning to get a sense of just how powerful this ability can be interpreted to be then we are on the same page. If not then I will provide a few examples to illustrate.

  • Because the possessor of this ability treats psionics and magic as identical, the possessor could apply metamagic feats to psionic powers. Metamagic feats don't require the expenditure of psionic foci. A character with this ability would have that limitation lifted.
  • A character with the power "Dispel, Psionic" and this granted ability could become a powerful counterspeller.
  • A character with this ability could research a spell as a power. E.g. a psion with this ability could research Gate as a 9th level power.
  • An Ardent using the Substitute Powers ACF from Mind's Eye could add a spell to one of his mantles as a power. E.g., an Ardent with the Force Mantle could swap in the much more versatile Telekinesis spell as a 5th level power.
  • Because all spells are treated as powers, arguably they would have no verbal, somantic, or material components. Likewise a power would be component-less spell with no display.

And that is but a few of the things I an think of.

Now, the part of me that likes powerful builds wants to believe that this is true, but the part of me that respects game balance thinks I'm reading too much into this ability. Therefore I ask you, dear readers of this thread, to talk me back from the brink. Are my above interpretations correct? Partly correct? Way off the mark? Please let me know.

dark_samuari

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 03:41:33 AM »
So if this is true than lets look at the legitimate benefits of dipping a level into ardent to pick up this ability.

1st-Level Ardent
A d6 hit die; Which isn't the best but it's still beating the wizard's/psion's d4.
Weapon/Armor Proficiencies; You're just going to be getting simple weapons but the real treasure is getting up to heavy armor proficiency and all shields (except tower shields).
+2 will; It isn't terrible but isn't anything to shoot home about.
2+int skills & a standard skill list; This is composed of what one might consider the regular stars on any psionic class skill list but it does have some gems in the form of diplomacy and all of the knowledge skills (which sets up towards knowledge devotion if desired).   
2 Psionic Mantles; Obviously you're going to be using one of your two mantles for the magic mantle but for the other one there are some quality mantles like conflict, knowledge and time that all have suitable granted powers based on the type of build you desire.
2 Powers and 2 Power Points per Day; This becomes a bit more varied as when bringing in the alternate class feature of Substitute Power from the Mind's Eye article. When utilized you may ideally substitute any power you desire for your two powers known as long as they thematically work for your mantles (which leads to the more favorable mantles being those with more vague/abstract titles or themes). Mindlink, Psionic Minor Creation, Conceal Thoughts and Create Sound are all fantastic choices as they are both versatile in their application and have a much longer duration than other powers.


veekie

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 04:25:45 AM »
Hmm, treat CL as ML and get pp out of the deal?
Nothing major, but it does help a cerebremancer get a bit more pp, if he needs em.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2010, 04:33:12 AM »
Quote
#
# Because all spells are treated as powers, arguably they would have no verbal, somantic, or material components. Likewise a power would be component-less spell with no display.
Or, arguably, now all your powers need components and your spells need displays as well.
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EjoThims

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 07:19:05 AM »
Quote
#
# Because all spells are treated as powers, arguably they would have no verbal, somantic, or material components. Likewise a power would be component-less spell with no display.
Or, arguably, now all your powers need components and your spells need displays as well.

Except that things are resolved in the most beneficial order when none is specified.

carnivore

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 07:49:00 AM »
  • Because the possessor of this ability treats psionics and magic as identical, the possessor could apply metamagic feats to psionic powers. Metamagic feats don't require the expenditure of psionic foci. A character with this ability would have that limitation lifted.
........ it is not lifted, if something does not specify it in the first place, it is not added now, nor removed .... because the opposite could be applied, Metamagic feats would then require you to expend focus
  • A character with the power "Dispel, Psionic" and this granted ability could become a powerful counterspeller.
..... agreed, this was already known
  • A character with this ability could research a spell as a power. E.g. a psion with this ability could research Gate as a 9th level power.
..... Agreed, this was already known
  • An Ardent using the Substitute Powers ACF from Mind's Eye could add a spell to one of his mantles as a power. E.g., an Ardent with the Force Mantle could swap in the much more versatile Telekinesis spell as a 5th level power.
.......... agreed, already known
  • Because all spells are treated as powers, arguably they would have no verbal, somantic, or material components. Likewise a power would be component-less spell with no display.
........ no, if something does not specify it in the first place, it is not added now, nor removed
[/list]

And that is but a few of the things I an think of.

Now, the part of me that likes powerful builds wants to believe that this is true, but the part of me that respects game balance thinks I'm reading too much into this ability. Therefore I ask you, dear readers of this thread, to talk me back from the brink. Are my above interpretations correct? Partly correct? Way off the mark? Please let me know.
this only boosts the power if Magic is Different is used .... normally Transparency is the Norm and the different aspects of each system define them

 :D

Mixster

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 09:28:38 AM »
So what you want to do is be an Ardent 3/ Wizard 1/Cerebremancer 10
Get a ML of 24.

I think it would work, but the DM would smite you.
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Sohala

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 11:51:13 AM »
Add on Mind Mage after six levels of Cerebremancer, for ML 52
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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 06:31:35 PM »
I'm waiting for someone to do something silly with Master Spellthief and Ultimate Magus...
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Jelvoden

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 07:12:20 PM »
For the sake of the discussion, lets make the rules in question 100% accessible.

Quote
MAGIC MANTLE
Granted Ability: You gain Use Magic Device as a class
skill. If you purchased ranks in Use Magic Device or Use
Psionic Device at the cross-class rate, you get additional ranks
in Use Magic Device or Use Psionic Device as if it had always
been a class skill for you.

In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical.
Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic
and psionics. Most campaigns already treat them in this
manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where
they are considered different systems.

Italicized for the important part of the paragraph. As awesome as complete equivalence would be, it's quite clear that the mantle enforces transparency rules even in games that don't use them. It probably could have been written better, but this is Complete Psionic we're talking about here.
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Widow

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 08:08:50 PM »
The power is interesting, but I am not sure it is that powerful.  For one, the etrudent alternative class ability to learn copies of arcane spells as psionics means that all spells can already be learned as psionics (with divine to arcane conversion tricks like southern magician and alterant sourced spell).  The extra power feat states the power you pick does not have to be one normally on your list, so you can already pick a spell.  Many of your other statements are also covered by this.

Applying a metamagic feat to your power would be powerful, but how do you increase the spell slot with your power?  I know they usually just do +2 power points per metapsionic feat "level", but without them stating you can I am not sure it is RAW.  Sudden metamagic's might work, including metamagic rods so that could be useful.  I am not sure an incantrix's ability to apply metamagic feats to your powers would work though, since a different character would not treat them the same.  Maybe midnight metamagic incarnium tricks might work if I knew the wording better.  Oh how much fun persistent power would be (the feat does exist in the third party book of ultimate feats and is amazing).

Counter-spelling with psionic dispel is useful, but again no more powerful than a spell caster with dispel magic.  Yes you are coming out ahead if your game does not use transparency, but that is what the power is suppost to do.

If you can get Spell resistence or power resistence, that would work for both.  But again I don't know if that is all that uber unless you get it really high.

You might actually end up behind if your DM would let your psionics work in an antimagic field, but that is kind of crazy anyway.

For it to be really powerful, I would like to see +1 manifestor/spellcaster level from PrC's to mean the same thing.  If you could be an incantrix psion or an thrallherd wizard, that would be sweet.  Likewise bonuses that grant +1 spellcaster or manifestor adding to both would be really useful (The illumian's +2 caster level racial ability comes to mind).

Saeomon

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Re: CPsi's Magic Mantle: Does it Tear the Whole System Asunder?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 08:58:06 PM »
After reading through the replies I'm convinced that it's not as good as I thought. I mean it's good but not THAT good.