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Amechra

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My fellow players metagame.
« on: May 27, 2010, 07:28:12 PM »
I hope this is the right board for this.  :blush


My problem is that my fellow player's are metagamers through and through. This isn't their fault; I don't think any of them can define metagaming, or even know what it is.

My question is, how could I explain the concept to my fellow players, who, for one example, talked about gods in a godless campaigns where all of them played natives.


Seriously, I need the help.

Thank you.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Sohala

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 07:30:32 PM »
Player knowledge vs character knowledge?
"You think I'm talking about breaking the rules?"
"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
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Amechra

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 07:44:17 PM »
Yeah, that sounds good.

Won't work for one player though. He once designed a class that essentially had DR (insert infinity symbol here)/-. Our DM, and later myself (I ran a short adventure between our DM's main adventures) smacked him down, and his only response to our stating that it didn't fit our campaigns (the fluff basically said that it turned damgae back on the enemy, so...) was that "of course it fit's your campaign. I designed it to fit anywhere."

This has since been sorted out, but I brought up this example to show how thickheaded my fellow players can be at times.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Prime32

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2010, 08:43:27 PM »
Yeah, that sounds good.

Won't work for one player though. He once designed a class that essentially had DR (insert infinity symbol here)/-. Our DM, and later myself (I ran a short adventure between our DM's main adventures) smacked him down, and his only response to our stating that it didn't fit our campaigns (the fluff basically said that it turned damgae back on the enemy, so...) was that "of course it fit's your campaign. I designed it to fit anywhere."

This has since been sorted out, but I brought up this example to show how thickheaded my fellow players can be at times.
That... isn't metagaming. That's being a munchkin.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Sohala

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2010, 11:44:19 PM »
Yeah, that sounds good.

Won't work for one player though. He once designed a class that essentially had DR (insert infinity symbol here)/-. Our DM, and later myself (I ran a short adventure between our DM's main adventures) smacked him down, and his only response to our stating that it didn't fit our campaigns (the fluff basically said that it turned damgae back on the enemy, so...) was that "of course it fit's your campaign. I designed it to fit anywhere."

This has since been sorted out, but I brought up this example to show how thickheaded my fellow players can be at times.
If it was actually DR, any level 2 incarnate could still damage him with weapons.
"You think I'm talking about breaking the rules?"
"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
[spoiler]
Characters
Ixen-Elemental Mage Test Game
Torgthen-The Darkening
Eldak-The Neverending Dungeon
Games
Dungeon Delver's Delight
Adventures in Eberron
Town of Terror
Working Progress
[3.5] Mana Mage

Amechra

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 12:52:54 AM »
Yeah, that sounds good.

Won't work for one player though. He once designed a class that essentially had DR (insert infinity symbol here)/-. Our DM, and later myself (I ran a short adventure between our DM's main adventures) smacked him down, and his only response to our stating that it didn't fit our campaigns (the fluff basically said that it turned damgae back on the enemy, so...) was that "of course it fit's your campaign. I designed it to fit anywhere."

This has since been sorted out, but I brought up this example to show how thickheaded my fellow players can be at times.
That... isn't metagaming. That's being a munchkin.

Oops.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Won't work for one player though. He once designed a class that essentially had DR (insert infinity symbol here)/-. Our DM, and later myself (I ran a short adventure between our DM's main adventures) smacked him down, and his only response to our stating that it didn't fit our campaigns (the fluff basically said that it turned damgae back on the enemy, so...) was that "of course it fit's your campaign. I designed it to fit anywhere."

This has since been sorted out, but I brought up this example to show how thickheaded my fellow players can be at times.
If it was actually DR, any level 2 incarnate could still damage him with weapons.

The thing was, it wasn't DR. It basically was removing all damage done to him as a free action, as soon as he was hit, and applying it to the enemy. So, effectively, infinite DR, and the enemy dies.


Oh, and I don't think he was trying to be a munchkin; he thinks feats are useless, and he probably really believed that his homemade class wasn't overpowered.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Sohala

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 01:04:03 AM »
Does the DMG at least have a dent in it from him having come up with this class ability? :twitch
"You think I'm talking about breaking the rules?"
"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
[spoiler]
Characters
Ixen-Elemental Mage Test Game
Torgthen-The Darkening
Eldak-The Neverending Dungeon
Games
Dungeon Delver's Delight
Adventures in Eberron
Town of Terror
Working Progress
[3.5] Mana Mage

Amechra

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 01:32:02 AM »
Does the DMG at least have a dent in it from him having come up with this class ability? :twitch

Nope, he caught both our DM and I at a time where the only hardcover bookws we had on hand were original copies of 1st AD&D books.

But he barely shows up anyway, so we don't really have to deal with him. But when he's there. :banghead
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

veekie

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 04:01:31 AM »
The thing was, it wasn't DR. It basically was removing all damage done to him as a free action, as soon as he was hit, and applying it to the enemy. So, effectively, infinite DR, and the enemy dies.


Oh, and I don't think he was trying to be a munchkin; he thinks feats are useless, and he probably really believed that his homemade class wasn't overpowered.

Show him this. Hostile Empathic Transfer is as close as it gets and it's not only capped, it's a standard action requiring a touch attack and a save. Though it's cranked up version is pretty nasty.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
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I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 09:23:13 AM »
I'm confused.  Do they also metagame, or were you using that term in place of munchkin?

If they do metagame, you can mechanically enforce some things with clever use of Knowledge skills.  Still, that doesn't stop a smart player from picking spells that target Will when fighting brutes and spells that target Fort when fighting thin, wiry casters.  A certain amount of metagaming is unavoidable.
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Amechra

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 09:06:06 PM »
Sorry, to clarify:
We have one munchkin, and a bunch of people who metagame plot from the DM (our usual DM has loose lips), and would metagame the game's mechanics if they knew them well enough (we just made the jump between 1st AD&D and 3.5. Yes, I know we're behind the times.)

Also, my current group has only been playing about 4 hours a week for the last 6 months, so they don't even really have the whole 'roleplaying' concept down.

I guess that's the real problem.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

weenog

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 09:49:17 PM »
Maybe you should point them in the direction of divination, show them some of the guides around here.  A great diviner pretty much forces the DM to hand over his notes anyway, at least they could metagame legitimately.
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Amechra

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 10:13:18 PM »
I'll try that.
Thanks.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Prime32

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2010, 05:50:42 PM »
Sorry, to clarify:
We have one munchkin, and a bunch of people who metagame plot from the DM (our usual DM has loose lips), and would metagame the game's mechanics if they knew them well enough (we just made the jump between 1st AD&D and 3.5. Yes, I know we're behind the times.)
There are certain parts of the game mechanics which characters can know, like "raging barbarians are more resistant to mental attack" and whether they can survive a fall of a certain height, without it being metagaming.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 05:52:45 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2010, 07:13:31 PM »
Well, the biggest metagamable stuff is monsters, you could encourage your DM to mix up the descriptions a bunch so that they cannot tell what a creature is just from it's description without an appropriate knowledge check.

Knowing the plot/adventure/campaign path is less curable.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Amechra

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Re: My fellow players metagame.
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2010, 12:14:31 AM »
Ah, well, the point is pretty much moot now. 3 players, out of our little 5 person group, can no longer come, so now I'm left with the guy who plays our party Soulknife (I know, I know); he actually is curable, I think.

So, if our group doesn't completely dwindle away, there should be a nice lack of metagaming.  :D

Still sad about the other players leaving. Ah well, the accidental munchkin is one of them.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing