Author Topic: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade  (Read 4975 times)

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DemonLord57

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The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« on: June 22, 2008, 03:30:55 AM »
I'm sure everyone has read about Blade Cascade by now, and how ridiculous it is with a little setup, especially with rerolls. Now, I'm going to show how the Warlord does it.

This requires two Tactical Warlords at 30th level with the Demigod epic destiny, and the encounter power Sudden Assualt. Basically, the idea is for the two Warlords to chain Sudden Assaults off of each other. It doesn't require that much setup (if any), assuming around +9 int modifer now, and the biggest trouble is probably getting rid of your other encounter powers (which can be accomplished by losing them before the battle and not taking a "short rest"). In this fashion, you can use only encounter powers to completely melt any opposition. Sure, it's 1[W] + Str mod instead of 2[W] + Str mod, and it requires two characters, but it's just using encounter powers, and the bonus provided by the power is enough to basically require no setup on anything they are adjacent to (other than the first hit, of course). The greatest part about it is that missing isn't that big a deal, just continue where you left off next round (actually, on the next Warlord's turn). If you want to use a reroll (no 3 rerolls from epic trickster, though) on it, that's fine, but it's fine not to.

edit: I am assuming that Sudden Assault is "expended" when you finish rolling damage and then give your ally their standard action. If it isn't, this is not really much of a combo... 3 weak attacks does not a combo make, nor would it be very similar to Blade Cascade if it were limited in such a way.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 06:06:08 AM by DemonLord57 »

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2008, 04:19:34 AM »
So this is basically chaining WRT, 4E style.  Considering it takes two level 30 characters, what's your point?

That said? Elven Accuracy.
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DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2008, 04:35:42 AM »
So this is basically chaining WRT, 4E style.  Considering it takes two level 30 characters, what's your point?

That said? Elven Accuracy.

My point is that this isn't complicated at all. It requires no extra resources, nor any non-renewable resources (dailies, APs, etc.). It only requires two Tactical Warlords who both have 1 encounter power. To basically get power as high as (or higher than) many combos involving dailies. This is like an at-will attack for them... completely renewable source of basically a weakened Blade Cascade. It trivializes encounters like Blade Cascade. It basically makes a weaker Blade Cascade, but lets you do it over and over again. What part of this is not... good? You don't even need set-up, it sets itself up after the first hit, and if the first hit misses, just try again! Elven Accuracy? If you mean to include that in this combo, yes that does help, though it requires an additional expenditure of resources. It's part of the optional (but not required) "set-up". If you mean to use it on its own, then even in the most favorable interpretation (compares current attack roll with new, "second" attack roll, and that Divine Miracle even applies to it), it still just lets you always crit on at-wills. This is more powerful than that.

That said, if a splatbook comes out with a feat that allows one to use an at-will attack instead of a basic attack, Commander's Strike with two Warlords just may be a hilarious source of infinite damage... them shouting at each other to attack over and over, somehow building up the energy until a massive attack from the fighter ends Orcus' life. It depends on how Commander's Strike's modification of an ally's damage is interpreted to work, though...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 04:44:28 AM by DemonLord57 »

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2008, 04:53:26 AM »
what's your point?
No need to be so negative. :P It's a fun combo !

edit: but I don't see how the damage from Commander's Strike builds up ?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 04:55:32 AM by Omen of Peace »
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tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 05:03:12 AM »
What part of this is not... good?
The part where you're touting how two level 30 characters are as good as a single level 13 Ranger power, daily or no.
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DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2008, 05:03:56 AM »
edit: but I don't see how the damage from Commander's Strike builds up ?

Basically, if the modification of damage is something like this: Commander's Strike (now CS) = MBA+Int1 --> CS+Int1 (important step) = MBA+Int1+Int2 --> etc... This would mean that basically, the transfer from the MBA to at-will kept the bonus damage as bonus damage on whatever damage that power would cause. I'm not sure if that's how it would work or not... especially since the feat doesn't exist :-\.... (yet :))

DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2008, 05:15:41 AM »
What part of this is not... good?
The part where you're touting how two level 30 characters are as good as a single level 13 Ranger power, daily or no.

Not as good... better. It's a level 15 daily power, and doesn't really kick into the extremes without a build designed for it and in epic levels (Epic Trickster). Yes, Blade Cascade is ridiculous, and yes, even without much optimization (but a little set-up) it does way more damage than a level 15 power should, but it doesn't even approach the level of this without a good setup, and that's only for one round. My combo trivializes all monsters in all encounters because of its ease of use. In one turn, it'll probably do less damage, but it can be used over and over, against all monsters, and on each Warlord's turn. I'm not proposing my build as something that should be built for, mainly because there is no build. It requires only that there are two Tactical (preferably) Warlords that have this single encounter power, and then they can pull this off every turn they get. Not once a day, every turn. Sure, it only kicks in once level 30 hits, but how is that insignificant? Archmage's Archspell only kicks in once level 30 comes around, and yet people plan combos around assuming that they have it. You yourself mentioned Elven Accuracy, which I assume you were combining with Divine Miracle, the 30th level Demigod ability? I've seen many discussions about using Divine Miracle, and abusing it. Do you think those are ridiculous for their required 30th level as well? If not, why is mine different? In any case, the point is: Once you get there, you win. There's no convoluted build at all, you don't have to try at all, you just get it and suddenly, encounters are trivial. There is no point to the idea other than that. You can make whatever kind of build you want in between, making synergies as you see fit (Warlords are good at that, especially the tactical ones.) If you want, I can give you a full build of a Tactical Warlord (I'm building one for my game), but that's not the point. I'm saying that this is an extremely easy to get, extremely flexible, extremely resource-independent combo.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 05:27:01 AM by DemonLord57 »

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2008, 05:24:04 AM »
Sure.  Except that it requires two people.  And really, the entire game is trivialized long before that when the Demigod Cleric throws up the Seal of Binding.

And, by the way?  Blade Cascade is a theoretically infinite attack routine. Regardless of build.  If you had a weighted die that always rolled a 20, you would never stop attacking.  Considering that you can technically run off, take an extended rest, and fight one encounter per day, there's no reason to think that what you've found is particularly better.
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DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2008, 05:38:27 AM »
Sure.  Except that it requires two people.  And really, the entire game is trivialized long before that when the Demigod Cleric throws up the Seal of Binding.

And, by the way?  Blade Cascade is a theoretically infinite attack routine. Regardless of build.  If you had a weighted die that always rolled a 20, you would never stop attacking.  Considering that you can technically run off, take an extended rest, and fight one encounter per day, there's no reason to think that what you've found is particularly better.

So is this... Sudden Assault --> Sudden Assault --> Sudden Assault --> Sudden Assault --> etc......
Okay, fine. Assuming that "daily" can be turned into "encounter" with a 5 minute workday, then yes, Blade Cascade offers quite a bit more early on. Hell, let's assume that you only care about one round of the encounter, and only your one turn, just to throw away what my combo has going for it. Then yes, Blade Cascade can certainly do more damage. In fact, it does more damage than pretty much anything in the game, besides Seal of Binding with some stuff like Blade Barrier/Fire Wall/Ice Wall. Assuming that using your daily doesn't matter and that you only care about one turn, yes, Blade Cascade and Seal of Binding are better. But this is the only thing that is even *close* to competitive with them. It is, as I've said already, basically a weakened Blade Cascade that can be done constantly. I didn't say that it is always better than Blade Cascade. It certainly is in some circumstances, but that's not really my point. There are only a few ways of doing ridiculous damage so far... This is one of them, and it only uses encounter powers... what part of that am I not communicating properly?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 07:25:38 AM by DemonLord57 »

anomalousman

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2008, 06:01:13 AM »
Additional note on the combo - you have to use your other encounter powers up before sudden assault will be renewed by demigod.

Move and minor action encounters might be good to get in that case.  I haven't looked for them, but careful multiclassing might make it come up faster.

DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 06:04:48 AM »
Additional note on the combo - you have to use your other encounter powers up before sudden assault will be renewed by demigod.

Move and minor action encounters might be good to get in that case.  I haven't looked for them, but careful multiclassing might make it come up faster.
I already addressed this issue: simply don't take "short rests", or at least use up your encounter powers after you do (before battle).

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2008, 06:12:36 AM »
I think the issue is your approach.  You're touting this as better than it is, talking as though this is a a be-all end-all combo.  It isn't.  However, you have a valid point when you say that this is one of a(so far) limited number of super-combos.

So call a spade a spade, and simply say that this is another method out of many(rather than talking it up too much).

Now, if you come up with a 4e method for creating pun-pun(or any ascended character), then you can feel free to have no humility.  Otherwise, no one responds well to cockiness(real or percieved).

I applaud your efforts.  Keep on thinkin!

DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2008, 06:26:20 AM »
I think the issue is your approach.  You're touting this as better than it is, talking as though this is a a be-all end-all combo.  It isn't.  However, you have a valid point when you say that this is one of a(so far) limited number of super-combos.

So call a spade a spade, and simply say that this is another method out of many(rather than talking it up too much).

Now, if you come up with a 4e method for creating pun-pun(or any ascended character), then you can feel free to have no humility.  Otherwise, no one responds well to cockiness(real or percieved).

I applaud your efforts.  Keep on thinkin!

I didn't think I was making it out to be a be-all end-all combo... I was just saying that it had a power level on the scale of Blade Cascade (though weaker than it on a per-round basis). Sure, I accept that it only happens at 30th level and requires two characters, but that doesn't change the scope of its power, only the range of levels (and therefore amount of time) it can be used in a campaign (and the limitation of having to have two characters fit the concept). If this is overstating it, could you please tell me why? I'm not trying to be cocky, just trying to say it as I see it...

In any case, thanks for the praise  :).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 06:38:02 AM by DemonLord57 »

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2008, 10:55:56 AM »
Basically, if the modification of damage is something like this: Commander's Strike (now CS) = MBA+Int1 --> CS+Int1 (important step) = MBA+Int1+Int2 --> etc... This would mean that basically, the transfer from the MBA to at-will kept the bonus damage as bonus damage on whatever damage that power would cause. I'm not sure if that's how it would work or not... especially since the feat doesn't exist :-\.... (yet :))
That's making a huge leap of faith: the simplest is CS=MBA+Int1, MBA is replaced by CS but the Int damage is lost. Except if the (hypothtetical) feat goes out of its way to indicate that it works... but what developer would be stupid enough to do that ?

I liked the slightly over-the-top title - it's not like they are rare around the CO board.
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DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2008, 05:24:14 PM »
That's making a huge leap of faith: the simplest is CS=MBA+Int1, MBA is replaced by CS but the Int damage is lost. Except if the (hypothtetical) feat goes out of its way to indicate that it works... but what developer would be stupid enough to do that ?
Well, I was going on the idea that it would be worded in such a way as to allow it. The basic interpretation of how it would work (if it would work) would be that Commander's Strike gives your ally a MBA with a bonus to damage equal to your int mod, so when the MBA is turned into an at-will, it's now essentially that the first Commander's Strike gave your ally an at-will with a bonus to the damage roll equal to your int mod. The bonus damage would get placed into the "hit" line, giving a bonus to the damage that would be dealt by the at-will (which is channeled into a MBA by your ally). I don't think they'd have to explicitly show it works in order for it to work. Of course, many DMs would just disallow it anyway, but this is mainly theoretical broken-ness, because if it works, then you can achieve infinite damage with simply at-wills and a feat each (for two Warlords with a positive int mod).

I liked the slightly over-the-top title - it's not like they are rare around the CO board.
thanks, I thought it'd attract attention :).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 05:29:54 PM by DemonLord57 »

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2008, 07:23:20 PM »
This just in: Archspell applies to multiclass powers, even if they're not "spells."  (See the CustServ thread.)  Blade Cascade is now per-encounter.
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

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DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2008, 08:35:43 PM »
This just in: Archspell applies to multiclass powers, even if they're not "spells."  (See the CustServ thread.)  Blade Cascade is now per-encounter.
:lol hahaha, that is hilarious! They just made Blade Cascade even more ridiculous then it already is! Wow....
(well, assuming that CustServ is considered to be a good source... given their history and their ruling right there... I don't think so)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 08:38:02 PM by DemonLord57 »

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2008, 09:11:02 PM »
I still don't see any way the Int bonus would be transferred, but let's leave it at that. (Note how you needed a whole paragraph to explain it: that entire paragraph would have to be in the feat IMO.)

This just in: Archspell applies to multiclass powers, even if they're not "spells."  (See the CustServ thread.)  Blade Cascade is now per-encounter.
But multiclass feats do not qualify you for Epic Destinies. Will people really go with wizard/ranger just for that ?
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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2008, 09:51:19 PM »
Wizard into Ranger?  I could see it.
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

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DemonLord57

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Re: The Warlord's Response to Blade Cascade
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2008, 10:05:47 PM »
Wizard into Ranger?  I could see it.
And with the Str and Int, you'd have good Fort and Ref for Bigby's hands. Then go Wizard of the Spiral Tower (and maybe re-flavor it to bastard swords, if possible).