Init math and matchups OR helping you find the desired init advantage.

[Echoes]

Really?  My group's always gone with highest dex, not initiative.  I wonder if it's a 2nd ed holdover or one of my long-forgotten house rules...

That's how my group ran it for awhile, too. I don't where it comes from, either.

[JaronK]

Note that Factotums get Int to initiative at level 3.

I suppose one could get silly and make a build like Factotum 4/OA Samurai 2/Fighter 1/Iajuitsu Master 5/Exemplar 8.  That would give you Charisma to initiative once and Int to initiative twice, plus nice Iajuitsu abilities.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Note that Factotums get Int to initiative at level 3.

I suppose one could get silly and make a build like Factotum 4/OA Samurai 2/Fighter 1/Iajuitsu Master 5/Exemplar 8.  That would give you Charisma to initiative once and Int to initiative twice, plus nice Iajuitsu abilities.

JaronK

What's the exemplar for?

[JaronK]

Int to initiative at level 8, +4 to Iajuitsu Focus, take 10 on all iajuitsu focus checks, iajuitsu focus as a diplomacy check, lend talent to give your entire party iajuitsu focus damage if you want.

Mostly it's just to play with the concept of applying lots of stats to initiative, but it works relatively well as a skillmonkey striker build that focuses on Int, Dex, and Cha.  That should be very nice for playing with some of the power skills like Diplomacy, UMD, and Iajuitsu Focus.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Int to initiative at level 8, +4 to Iajuitsu Focus, take 10 on all iajuitsu focus checks, iajuitsu focus as a diplomacy check, lend talent to give your entire party iajuitsu focus damage if you want.

Mostly it's just to play with the concept of applying lots of stats to initiative, but it works relatively well as a skillmonkey striker build that focuses on Int, Dex, and Cha.  That should be very nice for playing with some of the power skills like Diplomacy, UMD, and Iajuitsu Focus.

JaronK

Wow.  That class has ten levels.  The build is unplayable, but I hadn't noticed that exemplar actually had a decent ability in it.  Neat.

[tusk]

1 level dip of cleric net you the time domain (Spc), that grant improved init as domain power, plus some good spells. Thought would be good for Mr. Blink

[ninjarabbit]

The agressive trait from Unearthed Arcana/SRD gives you +2 initative at a cost of -1 AC, one of the best trade-offs in the game and making it probably the best trait besides spellgifted.

[JaronK]

Wow.  That class has ten levels.  The build is unplayable, but I hadn't noticed that exemplar actually had a decent ability in it.  Neat.

Unplayable?  It's a great skillmonkey (take 10 on tons of skills, Cunning Knowledge) that adds 9d6+9*Cha damage to all attacks against flatfooted opponents (assuming the old Quickrazor bit).  That's pretty darn impressive damage right there, so it's both a great skillmonkey and a great striker.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Wow.  That class has ten levels.  The build is unplayable, but I hadn't noticed that exemplar actually had a decent ability in it.  Neat.

Unplayable?  It's a great skillmonkey (take 10 on tons of skills, Cunning Knowledge) that adds 9d6+9*Cha damage to all attacks against flatfooted opponents (assuming the old Quickrazor bit).  That's pretty darn impressive damage right there, so it's both a great skillmonkey and a great striker.

JaronK

Skillmonkey isn't a party role and IF isn't all that impressive.  The exemplar levels are dead weight.

[JaronK]

Wait a minute... you've been going off in the past about how Rogue damage is good.  Now you see a build that blows away Rogue damage with IF damage (9d6+9*Cha beats the snot out of 10d6, and this build can do it far earlier) and you claim IF is unimpressive?  Not to mention there are a number of party roles that can be filled by skillmonkeys (scout, face, etc).

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Wait a minute... you've been going off in the past about how Rogue damage is good.  Now you see a build that blows away Rogue damage with IF damage (9d6+9*Cha beats the snot out of 10d6, and this build can do it far earlier) and you claim IF is unimpressive?  Not to mention there are a number of party roles that can be filled by skillmonkeys (scout, face, etc).

JaronK

And how is any of this contingent on the exemplar levels?

[JaronK]

It's not.  But you said the build was unplayable and that IF damage was unimpressive, not that Exemplar gave too little.

Exemplar is making you a better skill monkey (ability to take ten on 9+Int mod skills, a bunch of +4 competance bonuses to skills, diplomacer abilities) and giving better initiative (the point of this thread).  It also lets you give up to +8 to Iajuitsu Focus to your entire party, which is enough to give the rest of the party extra damage if you know what you're doing.  Further, the ability to give your entire party at least basically reasonable hide and move silently scores is quite useful.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

It's not.  But you said the build was unplayable and that IF damage was unimpressive, not that Exemplar gave too little.

Exemplar is making you a better skill monkey (ability to take ten on 9+Int mod skills, a bunch of +4 competance bonuses to skills, diplomacer abilities) and giving better initiative (the point of this thread).  It also lets you give up to +8 to Iajuitsu Focus to your entire party, which is enough to give the rest of the party extra damage if you know what you're doing.  Further, the ability to give your entire party at least basically reasonable hide and move silently scores is quite useful.

JaronK

Go back and read what I wrote.

[JaronK]

Skillmonkey isn't a party role and IF isn't all that impressive.  The exemplar levels are dead weight.

Yes, you wrote this.  You wrote that IF isn't all that impressive.  That is false.  Whether or not Exemplar is dead weight is a different issue (but it's really not, if nothing else Lend Talent with IF is pretty cool, and the ability to take 10 on IF checks means you don't need to pump  the skill quite as high).

You also wrote:  "The build is unplayable"

It's clearly not.

JaronK

[Akalsaris]

Note that Factotums get Int to initiative at level 3.

I suppose one could get silly and make a build like Factotum 4/OA Samurai 2/Fighter 1/Iajuitsu Master 5/Exemplar 8.  That would give you Charisma to initiative once and Int to initiative twice, plus nice Iajuitsu abilities.

JaronK

I'd play it.

(Though I'd probably get rid of the exemplar levels and go Chameleon instead...or, to continue the init optimization, be an elf and take 3 levels of wizard)

[JaronK]

Or you could drop Exemplar for a Marshal dip for Charisma to Initiative with just one level, and throw in more Factotum levels for the eventual Cunning Surge.  Make the most out of that first strike.

I just like the idea of being able to give everyone else Iajuitsu Focus!

JaronK

[Sunic_Flames]

Don't turn my guide thread into more fucking Fail shit or I'll kick all your asses at once with the same foot.

[Zarothar]

Alright, forgive a CharOP newbie here, but shouldn't the ties be part of the win column for everything over +0?

Let me try and reason this out:

Premise 1. This is about relative modifiers - so, automatically, if you have +1 or greater on this table, you've got the higher initiative modifier.
Premise 2. SRD: "If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other."

By Premise 1, +1 or greater on the table means you have the highest initiative modifier.
By Premise 2, the higher initiative modifier wins in the case of a tie.
By Premises 1+2, +1 or greater on the table means you win in the case of a tie.

So, wouldn't the table look like:

+0: 47.5% win, 5% tie, 47.5% loss.
+1: 57.25% win, 42.75% loss.
+2: 61.75% win, 38.25% loss.
+3: 66% win, 34% loss.
+4: 70% win, 30% loss.
+5: 73.75% win, 26.25% loss.
+6: 77.25% win, 22.75% loss.
+7: 80.5% win, 19.5% loss.
+8: 83.5% win, 16.5% loss.
+9: 86.25% win, 13.75% loss.
+10: 88.75% win, 11.25% loss.
+11: 91% win, 9% loss.
+12: 93% win, 7% loss.
+13: 94.75% win, 5.25% loss.
+14: 96.25% win, 3.75% loss.
+15: 97.5% win, 2.5% loss.
+16: 98.5% win, 1.5% loss.
+17: 99.25% win, 0.75% loss.
+18: 99.75% win, 0.25% loss.
+19 or higher: 100% win, 0% loss.

[Sunic_Flames]

I wasn't sure how ties worked at the time of writing and couldn't find the rule for that, so I counted it separately so as to avoid assuming wrong and making an ass out of you and me.

[ZeroSum]

Zarothar: You can extend the +0 case to a straight 50% either way since the reroll uses the same relative modifier yielding a fair shot.