OOC discussion

[Brainpiercing]

Ok, definitions:

Racial HD are the "levels" monsters have. Since they don't get class levels they get RHD, that means HP, BAB, saves, feats and skills, but no features. RHD are determined by Type.
For example:

I'm seeing difficulties in gaining a certain modification rather in the roleplaying side. Dragonborn for instance grants Dragon type, and it's a simple template with (AFAIK) 0 LA. So basically if you wanted to optimise your RHD you become Dragonborn first (and possibly gain 1HD already, I'm not entirely familiar with the Dragonborn template), and then add two more arms and wings, gaining two more Dragon HD. For fighters this might really be a worthwhile trade, because full BAB and three good saves might be worth the loss of three levels worth of class-features.

There is also the possibility of getting mixed types via the Augmented subtype. For instance becoming a Dragon (Augmented Human), so that you don't lose your human racial bonus feat. Augmented in this case basically means that you keep your racial traits and features of your base type for existing HD, unless they contradict traits from type.

For casters, the tradeoff is much worse, since they lose CL by default. So there we would have to look into a case by case adjustment. The trouble we will have is with level. If a fighter can gain 20HD by just getting  himself PAOd, then the caster is suddenly lagging far behind. So I think a good limit to gaining HD would be present ECL/2 or even ECL/4 rounded down, minimum 1. That way the disparities won't increase too much. (So a 10th level character could gain a two HD modification, while a 20th level character could add 5HD.) Of course, one would have to track the changes, and disregard previous PAOd HD from the base ECL.

And going back to making things a bit more difficult, probably a good way of balancing would be requiring exotic components, the aquisition of which must be roleplayed as a side-quest. (For example, becoming a dragonborn could require the heart of an adult dragon of appropriate type.)

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

Hm...fraction of ECL works.  As far as tagging on HD, you run into the problem that no caster would ever, ever use this spell (Thou shalt not give up caster levels)--though I could see modifying some racial HD to advance casting.  Outsider seems like a likely choice, as does Dragon (prereq being that you would need to *have* some sort of casting to advance). 

Of course, the flipside is that then it becomes too good--higher HP, BAB, and saves.  Maybe advance only on odd levels?  That allows a 1-HD dip without much penalty, but discourages going very far since, despite an avg clothy gaining BAB, HP, and possibly saves, they would lose out on more and more of their primary feature.

I dunno.  I still think some minor modifications (wings, darkvision, maybe 1 pt of NA such as scales) should have no HD cost, only the complexity of the spell and its components to balance them.

[Brainpiercing]

Hm...fraction of ECL works.  As far as tagging on HD, you run into the problem that no caster would ever, ever use this spell (Thou shalt not give up caster levels)--though I could see modifying some racial HD to advance casting.  Outsider seems like a likely choice, as does Dragon (prereq being that you would need to *have* some sort of casting to advance). 

Of course, the flipside is that then it becomes too good--higher HP, BAB, and saves.  Maybe advance only on odd levels?  That allows a 1-HD dip without much penalty, but discourages going very far since, despite an avg clothy gaining BAB, HP, and possibly saves, they would lose out on more and more of their primary feature.

I dunno.  I still think some minor modifications (wings, darkvision, maybe 1 pt of NA such as scales) should have no HD cost, only the complexity of the spell and its components to balance them.

Perhaps an XP cost alone for certain modifications? That way you don't lose CL, but still need to make an investment.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

It's basic and it works.  But I agree on the HD cost for bigger things.

[Brainpiercing]

One could also consider defining Caster types and non-caster types, so that RHD advance caster level (but not spell levels, etc.) IF they are gained after a level in a caster class.

(moved below)
Examples:

A Human sorceror gets a PAO to gain the Half-dragon template. His type changes to Dragon (Augmented human); He gains four Dragon RHD. His casting is not advanced, but his CL is now still as high as his HD without need for the practiced spellcaster feat.

A 12HD War Troll takes four levels of Cleric (to get 16 HD), then gets a PAO to gain the Half-fiend template. His type changes to Outsider (Augmented monstrous humanoid) and he gains 4 Outsider HD which advance his divine CL. He can only cast 2nd-level spells, but with a CL of 8. Although he now effectively has 16 Outsider-HD, only the final 4 count towards the CL increase. Also, his 12 original Monstrous Humanoid HD are not recalculated, due to the Augmented subtype.

[Brainpiercing]

Consolidated PAO Infos

Change the Target of Polymorph any Object to 1 or more Objects!.

The following will count as a separate spell, with the simple name of Change Creature:

Duration is changed to Instantaneous by default. The spell cannot be dispelled in any way, nor undone except by another CC or by a Wish or Miracle spell with special requirements.

Casting time is increased to 24 hours, +24 per HD added and casting the spell takes the form of a ritual. Resting is permitted during the casting period.

You can do almost any change you like with the spell.
Want a few more arms?
Want wings?
Want a certain template?
Want to be another race? Become a monster?

The Change Creature spells effectively creates a new racial progression for a character or creature. It can also create Substitution Levels for existing class progressions, even retroactively. (Want to get rid of that third level of fighter?) Any character wishing to receive a casting of Change Creature must have XP to advance one level immediately, unless the change carries no HD cost, or only retroactively creates a sub-level.
If the change carries a HD cost the character then advances with the first HD of the new progression immediately, and from then on can decide at any level to advance either a class level or a level of his creature progression.

Some possible changes:

A pair of limbs (arms, legs) will add one RHD and carry a minor stat boost of +2 to Str OR Dex.

Wings that grant double-land/average will cost 5000XP, unless you want special abilities like faster flight, better maneuverability, etc.

A template will add it's increase in CR+n, where n is anything from 0 to 3, depending on the template. Some templates lack LA but DO advance CR, I'm not sure about those, yet. Some templates offer worlds of suck for huge cost, basically I'll probably give you discounts on those, should you want them. Other templates give worlds of win for negligable cost, so you can probably expect n to be rather approaching 3 than 1.

Changing your race will add the new races LA in HD+n, and obviously change your type, etc. Existing RHD won't normally be recalculated, although you have the option of doing that for an added cost.

Turning into a monster will add the monsters CR+n in HD. You can give up class-levels to accomodate the RHD, and of course you will need to have sufficient total HD to allow the change.

Increasing your size in the range of an "Enlarge Person" spell will add the same bonuses as the spell, and cost 1RHD. Increasing your size further will gain benefits as the Giant Size spell and cost 1HD/size category +1. Obviously being colossal isn't always advantageous.

If you change yourself too much you should probably become an Aberration, although you will receive warning of this before the change, and will probably be able to do something about it.

Adding Spell-like abilities equivalent to the "Spell-stitched" template (but no other bonuses) adds one RHD. You must have sufficient HD to meet caster-level requirements of spells with your CL of HD-1, but this change acts like a scaling template, so you can get it early and automatically receive the benefits later.

Adding an at-will SLA of up to 6th level will cost 2RHD and offer a CL of HD-2.

All SLAs have a casting time as the spell, metamagic is possible. Special material components must still be provided. You must pay 10 times the average XP-cost of the spell during the PAO ritual, after that XP costs are no longer required.

All changes will have a roleplaying requirement, a gold cost, and also require special ingredients. I expect you to hold your own measure with this spell.

Racial HD will get some changes:

Dragon HD advance arcane CL

Aberration HD advance Psionics CL

Undead HD generally advance casting and Psionics CL

Outsider HD advance arcane OR divine CL

Human HD get an increase in the number of class skills and skills/lvl, and advance arcane or divine or psionics CL

Monstrous Humanoid HD are advanced to D10s and advance Initiator-level

Fey HD advance arcane CL

Giant HD gain full BAB and are advanced to D12s, OR stay with 3/4 BAB and advance divine casting.

Elemental HD advance Arcane or Divine CL

Magical Beast HD advance Arcane or Divine CL

Plant HD advance divine CL

I have ignored mindless types. This will necessitate reworking some monsters, but that is paperwork that is largely my own. My focus probably won't be on monsters, anyway, in this campaign.

Now granting all those possibilities is pretty hard if you hard-wire all the rules. If you have a special wish that will make the game considerably more fun for you I don't see special reasons to deny it. I will, however, request final say on all changes made. Also, I want to specifically boost non-casters with these possibilities. Pre-epic I primarily see them as recipients of this spell. Also, the possibilities and costs reflect the basic premise that Class-features > than everything else. The fact that this is not always so doesn't particularly speak for the WOTC writers. However, it is your responsibility to make sure you get sufficient gain for your class-levels.

[Brainpiercing]

I made the opening post for Tynien, with a short passage P-F-H PMed me.

I might still have to edit a bit, depending on what other information will be PMed to me in the next few days, so don't take this as 100% final. I just wanted something down for now.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

*pokes for signs of life* hullo?

[Snizor]

*pokes for signs of life* hullo?

*grumbles slightly*

[Brainpiercing]

Yeah, I'm waiting for Akula to reply to my PM, Straw-Man is AFC until the 17th or so, Smudgyhandsman wants until today to do his opening, and for Snizor I want hear suggestion as to where his starting scene could take place - and a possible opening post.

It's all up to you guys now.

However, Pan-Fried-Hamster, you could just begin replying. Since we're not all together yet it won't matter if you run ahead a bit.

[Smudgy]

Everything of mine will be in 9:00pm Eastern Time.

[Brainpiercing]

I'll set a bit of scene for you right now - just an initial impression as per your last PM.

[Surreal]

My thoughts on PaO... think of it as (very fast magic enhanced) evolution. Or perhaps as an alternate method of leveling up. My first impression on read through is that it is too complicated. Too many variables with some things costing XP, others costing HD, etc. It might as well be on a case-by-case basis if you're doing that. I understand that you want to open up options for PCs, but polymorph gets really really stupid, especially when the rules concerning HD/LA/ECL/CR are messed up to begin with. I think to come up with a reasonable polymorph requires a more stable ecl system first (which is beyond the scope of D&D 3.5).

I would say just simply make everything cost HD (or trade in your existing class/racial levels). A PC then cannot change into something beyond his HD (with DM allowances for slight stretches either way). If we want to be flexible and higher powered, maybe allow the pc to cherry pick which levels he gives up, even lower level ones within a class. For example, a fighter could trade away those useless levels at 3 and 5. This gives the melee guys more flexibility, but limits what spellcasters can do (not like they need flexibility anyways). Obviously issues will come up regarding prereqs, but I think we can treat those on a case-by-case basis.

Example: a Ranger 10 wants to become a Minotaur (6 hd as per the monster conversion rules). He keeps ranger levels 1, 7, 8, 9; thus retains tracking, wild empathy, woodland stride, swift tracker, and evasion. He loses his combat styles, animal companion, and extra favoured enemies. He still casts as a 4th level ranger, and I might even say that a third of his monster hd progresses his ranger casting because I'm feeling generous (maybe half or more if the monster fits the class), so he'll cast as a 6th level ranger. Should he go back to ranger, he'll pick back up at ranger 11. Since he no longer has his combat styles from before, we'll just say he starts over from the initial choices and he picks improved natural attack (fangshield substitution level, Champions of Valor). By the time he hits level 15 (and has picked up his 2nd favoured enemy), maybe the ranger wants to become a feral minotaur. He trades away that rather empty level 12, although it puts him back another spell level, so he now casts as a ranger 10 and goes back down to 2nd level spells.

Well, that's just a quick'n'dirty example I did on the spot. It's not perfect.

[Brainpiercing]

First, in case anyone is wondering, Surreal will be joining us as well. Even though the deadline was past I think I can someone get him into the game without neglecting the first group of players.

Secondly: Surreal, you seem to have a big problem with adding HD just by casting a spell. While I do agree that in any "standard" D&D game this would be pretty much impossible, I don't see it as impossible in this game. However, I do like some of your ideas:

Perhaps instead of adding a HD immediately a casting of PAO (or any renaming of the spell) could open up a new progression for a character. A player can exchange a few levels for HD, first, if he likes. And why not cherry-pick them? Who WANTS that third level of fighter, anyway? Any level without class features is just adding a bit of meat, that's not what characters should be like. Monsters are collections of HP and physical stats, characters should have class features.

Of course we even have a mechanism for doing this already in the game: Substitution levels. How about allowing PAO to make your own sub-levels? That way you could make your own progression fit your wishes. (And I can make yet badder BBEGs ).

So if you don't yet HAVE that third useless level of fighter your casting of PAO will allow you to create a sub-level in which you gain, for instance, one HD and grow a second pair of arms. Or you gain one quarter of a transition into a Half-celestial. That way those feature-less levels just go away, and don't close the door for BETTER levels in the class progression.

I would still want to stick with my RHD changes. I don't think it adds that much complexity. Of course some HD are just better than others, but that's just in the nature of the game.

I would also stick with some minor changes just costing a bit of XP on a case by case basis. The reason being that I don't want to fully close the door for casters to get some minor improvements, even pre-epic.

[Surreal]

Secondly: Surreal, you seem to have a big problem with adding HD just by casting a spell. While I do agree that in any "standard" D&D game this would be pretty much impossible, I don't see it as impossible in this game.

Chalk it up to a kneejerk negative reaction to anything polymorph related. It's also the engineer in me... the more I thought about the temporary vs permanent polymorph, I realized I was approaching it from a "conservation of energy" approach. Consider that all objects and creatures contain a certain amount of energy which defines their essence; you can almost liken it to a soul energy of sorts. There are many other types of energy as well (all the stuff defined by physics, arcane/divine, etc).

I look at polymorph and see it as a temporary effect wherein the change is brought about by external energies. Rather than seeing it as a direct change to the body, I almost see it as a sort of mask (with very good force feedback... like a holodeck with the safeties turned off). Now obviously there needs to be some external source of energy (arcane or divine most likely), and someone who can manipulate that energy to provide the desired effect (caster).

With a permanent polymorph however, external energy was used to create the change, but the subject's own energy needs to sustain the new body, which puts a limiter on how much can be changed/added. The stronger (ie: higher level) the subject, then the more can be changed/added. I think this fits in well with the exchanging xp and substitution level idea we have brewing. Now for the fun part: who says we can't steal that "body" energy from somewhere else? It adds the mad science/crazy wizard feel to the whole ritual, explains why it takes longer (energy takes time to transfer and/or adapt to a new body) and gives a roleplay hook as well. Conceptually this even works for the idea of grafting.

Loosening the concept a bit, just pool a character's xp/hd/wealth into one big lump (assuming wealth is pretty much standard per level) and define it as their essence (because honestly, your race, class and gear pretty much define what you are in game terms). Now all of these things can be "traded in" to fuel changes to your body. Other fun comes when you start borrowing that energy from elsewhere, trading your soul to demons for more, etc.

Anyhow, that's just my morning ramblings on the subject.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

On another rules note, and something that could be added to the first Campaign info post: what colors are we using for languages?  I was mostly wondering due to the "encounter" in my intro post, and whether or not the woman's colored text had any significance.

My two cents for covering some basics.  Took the language list from d20 and pared it down a bit.
Not listed: Aquan/Auran/Ignan/Terran

There are a lot more predefined HTML colors than the ones listed, but I'd like to keep it basic and readable.

Abyssal - Red
Infernal - Maroon
Celestial - Gold (Yellow is unreadable)

Common - Black
Dwarven - Saddlebrown (because Brown looks Maroon)
Elven - Green
Gnome - Grey
Halfling - Navy

Draconic - Orange
Sylvan - Deeppink (Pink is unreadable)
Druidic - Teal
Undercommon - Purple

Savage Humanoids (Orc, Gnoll, Goblin, Giant): Lime Green with a [Language] tag before speech the first time they speak in a post, or if they change languages.  The same could go for regional languages, just use black with a [] tag.

Ex:
[spoiler]
Niknik grumbled under his breath.  [Goblin] "Human-kissing son of a horse."
Gortog glanced over sharply at his underling.  [Orc] "What you say?!"
Niknik looked up, startled, and forced a smile onto his face.  [Orc] "Nothing!  Happy to help!"

It's only confusing when multiple languages are present.  I don't expect a whole lot of savage humanoid diplomatic conferences...
[/spoiler]

If anyone objects to having a fruity color...well, the worst is Sylvan, which I didn't expect to see very much of.  Plus, if you're talking in feyspeak, then you ARE fruity.   

Of course, if I overlooked a previously existing reference to this, then please point me to it.

[Brainpiercing]

Now while I appreciate the effort: I'm NEVER going to be able to remember the color coding. Also, I'd like to keep it as much prose as possible, so basically, anything not especially mentioned to be another language (within the text) will be common. If you want to have people speaking lots of languages in the posts, do it with regular prose. Of course every now and then you might remind people with the language in brackets. You may also use the colors, but I'll probably be too lazy to remember them .
E.g.:[spoiler]
The huge red dragon eyed Oddjob with nothing but contempt. 'Remove yourself', it said in Draconic, not really expecting a reply. Then it added in common with a malicious, toothy grin, 'I'll give you a five second start.... RUN.'

Oddjob just heard a rumble from the dragon's throat the first time the dragon spoke, but he got the message the second time. Run he did, just not the direction the dragon had thought...[/spoiler]

The color coding in the post for you didn't mean anything. It was just a way to make the speech more visible.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

I'll probably use the pretty colors anyways.  It'll be mostly Elven and Common from my character, so you won't have to worry about knowing more than a few of those. :study

[Smudgy]

Surreal, your character is probably going to frighten my character in ways he doesn't even understand. 

[Surreal]

Dude, Agnak is like eight times his size. In theory, Mag is very nearly punt-able... in theory.  Oh man, that would be a hilarious first encounter.

(incidentally, I've updated his alternate description a little bit. In retrospect I should have kept that part secret, but I was just in writing mode and didn't realize that I'd posted it until it was too late)