Author Topic: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!  (Read 3157 times)

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Dictum Mortuum

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[CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« on: May 16, 2010, 09:57:52 AM »
As optimizers, we usually prefer to provide a level 20 build snapshot, at least when level restrictions do not specifically apply. However, a good amount of players out there don't even manage to get to mid levels when adventuring, for a variety of reasons. The reverse may also be true: people playing only high level campaigns.

So, i thought that a poll like this will help theoretical builds, like those on the handbooks.

Vote away!

//edit: you can vote for more than one levels.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 10:32:38 AM by Dictum Mortuum »
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SorO_Lost

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2010, 10:33:39 AM »
Level 20 builds get posted not just because we like power, but becuase you must know what your character plans to be.

A lot more often than not feats are listed in a way that tells you the build's progression is outside of trivial stuff like nonrequired skill points & items. You can start at any level and put the build to use and know what you need to take or learn to finish off the build. Most posters will even note progression problems or simply never use that build and thus not post anything about it at all (looking at you wiz/clr theurge).

The ToB is the only thing that gains any special advantage to building at a targeted level due to how the maneuver system works and there is/was a handbook or advice thread for that on 339 a long time ago. Perhaps we could use our own...
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

CantripN

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2010, 11:15:54 AM »
Sorcerers and Favored Souls also suffer from organic level-up, as there are quite a few spells that rock for a level or two and then stop. Their limited replacement of spells is too slow and well, limited.

That said, yes, I make any 1-20 build such that it works always, even if it's not always Tier 1-2.
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Mixster

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2010, 11:38:39 AM »
Actually most our games are low-level 1-8. The internal balance just seems more intact at those levels, and our dungeon masters don't go crazy over all the weird stuff we do. (Although there was that one time when we managed to get two immovable rods by level 2, well, suffice to say we didn't keep them for long).
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Rymosrac

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2010, 12:58:33 PM »
Our games have pretty much always started around level 3-5, with a stated expectation to get to around 15. This usually means we finish them between 10 and 12.
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Littha

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2010, 01:04:48 PM »
I like to start at 5 and then work up to 16 or so,
5 gives a nice start point because:
  • Next level most people take a PRC
  • Feat at next level
  • High enough for a character to have attained some uniqueness

awaken DM golem

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2010, 05:13:48 PM »
I still like the Cosmology type approach, so level 21+. It's just that doing CO, means epic is really ridiculous. And early.

In 2e, I had a witchdoctor version of an Orc, that plucked out his Eye for Gruumsh, but (somehow) made a Beholder bag with Eyes in it, to swap out, and then became a Vampire, and the eye(s) grew back. And gruumsh got mad. Etc ... years and years later. Basically Cleric 5 with Wiz Alterations only 3 , but very weak.

I hate level 1, stuff dies too often. Feels too kitey.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 05:16:12 PM by awaken DM golem »

Unbeliever

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2010, 06:14:19 PM »
Most of our games start around 6-8, we like to give people a level or two in their prestige class and get at least some of their build out there at the table.

Ideally, I think builds should "mature," that is, do their thing and their trick, by 10-12.  Some builds, like Shadowpouncers, don't hit it by then, so I tend to hold off on those till games that start off at a high level, like the one I'm supposedly running ...

Akalsaris

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2010, 02:38:22 AM »
Nearly all of my 3.5 and PF games are in the 1-6 range, with a single 13th level one as well.  I'm generally either the DM or do PBP games, so I have few opportunities to play in RL and even fewer for my characters to level (1/yr is standard for my PBP games).  So it's critical for me that a build matures by 6th-8th level, preferably sooner, which is why I almost inevitably tend to enjoy the early-blooming classes like druid and warblade most.

bearsarebrown

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 02:52:18 AM »
We roll a D8 and the next campaign starts at 20 + the result.

S_Jerusalem

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 03:20:42 AM »
Most of the games I've played either start at around2-3 and go til 17-20 (when the main arc is finished), or are mid-level (12-15ish) few-month pacebreakers from the long-running arcs we usually play.

Most recent game actually started @1, and we are just on the cusp of 15.

KellKheraptis

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 03:44:55 AM »
Most of mine start in the upper ranges.  A lot in C-dale were low to lowish, but all the ones I run at least are high-epic or epic-cosmic (DF cosmic, as in DvR 0 with actual DvR or DvR 0 with actual CsR, war of the gods basically).  I had a level 30 DvR/CsR 5 game run two whole sessions without a single die roll in combat because A)the party didn't want to face what they knew they'd be facing if they did, and B)it would have consequences in the cosmic and political sense with the other cosmic beings.  Kinda like El' not fragging Zzass, because he knows it'll only stir shit up and he won't actually kill him :P
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Saxony

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2010, 05:25:50 AM »
I always play from level 1-20 (sometimes into Epic if the game goes that far).

So I guess I play all levels equally. Maybe not 30+, but everything else.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 11:33:49 AM »
I hate level 1, stuff dies too often. Feels too kitey.
Seconded.

Level 1 is nothing more than gambling with a blank of a character.

[spoiler]Wizard: "I am a necromancer, practitioner of the dark arts, evil incarnate of free slavery."
Any_Class_Here: "Cool, what can you do?"
Wizard: "Umm. I can't do anything necro-like other than touch you in funny ways."
Bard/Cleric/Duskblade/Paladin/Rogue/Sorcerer: "I can do that too."
Barbarian/Fighter/Hexblade/Monk: "My uncle once did that, I hit him over the head with a stick afterwards. Wish I could talk about things more but I'm level 1"
RPer: "You don't need levels to RP a good character. Look at me I'm a fat & overweight old and retired champion sumo warrior."
DM: "There are rules for obesity and since you lack the trait you are not fat enough to look it. Also your monk level is too low so you need to note the aging bonuses & penalties for being old. And you are level 1, like just out of monk school to try wrestling for the first non-practice/rigged time in your life, so you were never a champion outside of scrubbing floors."
All: "Let's gamble on the d20 for auto kills and XP so we can be interesting!"[/spoiler]
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Cuindless

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 02:19:45 PM »
Most of the games I've played in start at 3rd level then peeter out by 12th, so I voted for 3 - 12.

Havok4

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2010, 02:30:03 PM »
Same here my games generally have gone from 3-11.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2010, 05:28:51 PM »
Just to answer to the first two posters, i'm not suggesting that we abandon level 20 planning. I'm just saying that providing additional build snapshots would be great.
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Hallack

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2010, 05:40:50 PM »
My group has always tended to start at 1st level though a few times I would start them out with a few levels when I was running. 

That is through the course of the many editions and not just 3rd however.

Usually we end up winding up games by mid levels 10-13 range.  Though there may be a trend of that starting to change.  Hehe, helps when the other DM is wanting to play higher level builds too :)
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Cuindless

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2010, 02:39:32 PM »
My favorite builds, Dictum, are the ones that provide either every level or snapshots at 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20.

Etarran

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Re: [CharOp Poll] Optimizers and levels!
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2010, 09:25:10 PM »
I play with a few different groups, but the vast majority have begun their games at first level, with four and twelve being other common starts.

A common approach for us is to start the campaign at level one, and then have the players gain a level every session or so, so they can ease into the character a little more. This is helpful for newer players, and also gives you some idea of how the games is actually playing out before you spend build resources on something that won't be relevant or will be detrimental to party dynamics.

I have very rarely played on into epic levels, as several of my group members find mid-levels to be the most fun.